Umm... an Idea

[exasko]

alright, i bet this has been said before but i think you should have like a 50+ post and be here for a certian amount of time before you can advertise your company...

[Robert]

that would lead to useless posts and people spamming the forums just to get 50 posts and then advertise.

[Chicken]

I think that works sometimes, but as Robert said, in some cases it just penalizes the people who actually post meaningful posts and patiently wait until they have 50 posts. The people who abuse it (and who are most undeserving), are rewarded.

At this point, I don't think there's too much concern, however I don' think it's a bad thing to discuss what may come about in the future.

[Andrew]

Ive seen something done on another forum that I think is a great idea...

Still to be seen how well it works, but this is what they are doing..

Only allowing offers that actually appear on web hosts sites...

Im sure its a hell of alot of work to moderate....but...

Seemed like a good idea....

my $0.02

[markblair]

Andrew, so with the way you mentioned it, someone couldn't continue beating another hosts price just to get a customer? If they did, they'd have to modify their site and potentially make the offer available to many more people? That might be a good idea to think about. :)

[Andrew]

Well, its not an "original idea by Andrew", but...

I thought it was a pretty good one...

Let me know what you guys think after discussing...

[Chicken]

Originally posted by Andrew:

Only allowing offers that actually appear on web hosts sites...
The only thing that concerns me with this is that it doesn't benefit the person requesting as much. If you're posting on a forum to try to get a better deal that what you've seen on the web while surfing and through hosting directories, it wouldn't be beneficial to just have the same offers posted.

To me, there are two separate forums, for two separate members. The request forum is for people who need services, but may be seeing if they can get a better deal than what they've seen, or they have specialized needs that they want bids for, or they want offers from members because they fel more comfortable buying from members (people they know), etc.

Then there are the providers who have the Offers forums, in which they can post their usual packages, or specials for hoiidays or just slow sales periods.

In my view, you need to do what's best for who is posting. I understand that the objective is to limit scam offers, however I'm hesitent to do something that limits what can be offered. For example, this means that sponsorship could not happen (as no host has sponsored packages on their site).

Now I don't think sponsorship is the main focus, however hosts always need places to advertise (aside from some of the same oversaturated directories), and sometimes sponsorship is the kind of niche that hosts need to try.

EDIT: I also don't want to seem like I'm shooting down every idea, rather I'm trying to play devil's advocate and give people somethign to think about and discuss.

[exasko]

First, I don't aggree with the idea Andrew brought up, because it's nice to see a host make a plan just for you, instead of trying to fit into a package..

I know my forum is totally different then HHO, but when I see meaningless post on my forum, I simply delete. Now I am sure that would be easier here then on a teen forum, and may take a few more mods to read every post and say if it's good or not but that could help prevent usuless post...

I just want to say why I thought there should be a limit before you can offer is because I personally feel safe with some one who has posted a little bit more then 2 times on the forum. Like Robert, when he had his hosting company, I felt safer with him because I knew he wasn't a scam, but when I look at someone with a great plan that maybe only has 1 post.. it makes me question there stabiblity..

[Chicken]

I understand that, and feel one should, however I also think that the member should be deciding that, not me. If the forum could distinguish between useless posts and non-useless posts (guess that'd be useful, eh?) -then I'd be all for it. I'd rather them post in the ad forums than clog the entire forum with potentially garbage posts just to reach 50. That's more mess than benefit IMHO.

Post count is already enough of a motivation to post 'less than useful posts' as it is, and I'd prefer not to give more motivation towards simply reaching a particular number. It's not quantity, it's quality and someone with 10 posts may be more deserving than someone with 1,000 posts.

[interactive]

Again though this just irratates you. Because what is the definition for a "worthless" post, besides being off topic? I know I've posted what I would consider worthless "posts" but again it's all opinion based and if you moderate a forum "opinion" based, you have problems as seen on other sites, such as WHT, GenMay, etc.

I like what SitePoint does with their web design review requests. They make you post atleast 3 other posts on other requests in the forum before you're allowed to start one thread of your own. It keeps it active and also keeps alot of garbage out. If someone knows what needs to be done on their website they'll be less likely to post a worthless review thread. Just my couple of pennies.

Originally posted by exasko:

First, I don't aggree with the idea Andrew brought up, because it's nice to see a host make a plan just for you, instead of trying to fit into a package..

I know my forum is totally different then HHO, but when I see meaningless post on my forum, I simply delete. Now I am sure that would be easier here then on a teen forum, and may take a few more mods to read every post and say if it's good or not but that could help prevent usuless post...

I just want to say why I thought there should be a limit before you can offer is because I personally feel safe with some one who has posted a little bit more then 2 times on the forum. Like Robert, when he had his hosting company, I felt safer with him because I knew he wasn't a scam, but when I look at someone with a great plan that maybe only has 1 post.. it makes me question there stabiblity..

[Andrew]

Originally posted by exasko:

First, I don't aggree with the idea Andrew brought up, because it's nice to see a host make a plan just for you, instead of trying to fit into a package..

We dont make custom plans for anyone...the cost of managing multiple plans is quite high... Imagine 500 customers, all on unique plans - YUCK!!


I know my forum is totally different then HHO, but when I see meaningless post on my forum, I simply delete. Now I am sure that would be easier here then on a teen forum, and may take a few more mods to read every post and say if it's good or not but that could help prevent usuless post.....

How do you determine whats meaningless - Seems like a matter of opinion


I just want to say why I thought there should be a limit before you can offer is because I personally feel safe with some one who has posted a little bit more then 2 times on the forum. Like Robert, when he had his hosting company, I felt safer with him because I knew he wasn't a scam, but when I look at someone with a great plan that maybe only has 1 post.. it makes me question there stabiblity..

Seems to me a post limit would only increase the amounts of "meaningless" posts. At the very least it would create an environment where people were sceptical of posters because the thought process would be that people are just trying to reach the post minimum.

Im not sure if theres a simple solution - Chicken seems to have a good handle on things and I would generally tend to agree with him on most issues -

I still believe that some measure of moderation should exist in the requests forum, but I really dont have a magic solution - so best solution may be to leave as is....

[Chicken]

Originally posted by interactive:

I like what SitePoint does with their web design review requests. They make you post atleast 3 other posts on other requests in the forum before you're allowed to start one thread of your own. It keeps it active and also keeps alot of garbage out. If someone knows what needs to be done on their website they'll be less likely to post a worthless review thread. Just my couple of pennies.
I also like what Sitepoint does in terms of their web design review requests, and think it works for them well. They are more a web development forum, so I'm not sure it would work as well here and on other web hosting forums, and it does have the potential to be abused ("Your site is nice, make the border red"), but it works for them.
Originally posted by Andrew:

...so best solution may be to leave as is....
...for now at least. I do like discussion about it for the future though.

[John D]

I think theres ways around a rule for only allowing hosts to post offers which exist on their site, for example if they have a script on their site to create custom plans on the go, ie. without having to contact support.
They might advertise this in their sig..
I offer custom plans on my site and have a script to add up the cost.
I think it might help with that rule though.

It is a lot more moderating to do for the moderators and could be very hard to handle on a forum with a large offer and request forum.

[PULSE_Inspired]

I just want to say why I thought there should be a limit before you can offer is because I personally feel safe with some one who has posted a little bit more then 2 times on the forum. Like Robert, when he had his hosting company, I felt safer with him because I knew he wasn't a scam, but when I look at someone with a great plan that maybe only has 1 post.. it makes me question there stabiblity..

As a new member if this board I feel that I must represent. Though board owners can obviously do whatever they want, I find the quote above to be elitest at best and prejudice at worst. How many times has fear of a particular group of people lead to something good?

It goes against the very nature of the forum as an open format for the free exchange of ideas and information. You want people to 'prove' themselves to post an ad in a forum? Next would be judging the legitimacy of each post...

If you choose not to work with companies that 'appear' new, that is completely your choice, as is any other criteria that you desire to apply.

[markblair]

PULSE_Inspired, you're always going to have people that only signup with a hosting company for what might appear to be minor reasons. I'm not directing this toward exasko or anyone else but some people will just feel safer with someone that has more posts on a forum versus another person feeling safer with a company that's been in business for ten years. As for the specific quote, sure it was a suggestion. I would pretty much consider it just as that at this point at least. It's hard to say how or if there should be a limit of sorts before someone can advertise. Right now, there isn't such a limit. Many have suggested various things to at least try to prevent people from signing up only to advertise. Right now, that isn't the goal of this forum from what Chicken has mentioned in the past.

[BVSDavid]

I dont think that you should use HHO as means of all your advertising. I mean it is good enough that it gives us to quote on dedicated servers and so on but using it too much like crossing the line for the number of postings I think is too much.

[interactive]

Originally posted by PULSE_Inspired:

As a new member if this board I feel that I must represent. Though board owners can obviously do whatever they want, I find the quote above to be elitest at best and prejudice at worst. How many times has fear of a particular group of people lead to something good?

It goes against the very nature of the forum as an open format for the free exchange of ideas and information. You want people to 'prove' themselves to post an ad in a forum? Next would be judging the legitimacy of each post...

If you choose not to work with companies that 'appear' new, that is completely your choice, as is any other criteria that you desire to apply.

I think his/her point was more of that if the person was a scammer they wouldn't have stuck around. Which is true. I'd judge by the date the person signed up and not the number of posts.

It's just a fact of life, one of those ones that you just sometimes have to live with. That is that you will be judged and expect to be, IMHO.

[IdologicJeff]

Originally posted by Chicken:
To me, there are two separate forums, for two separate members. The request forum is for people who need services, but may be seeing if they can get a better deal than what they've seen, or they have specialized needs that they want bids for, or they want offers from members because they fel more comfortable buying from members (people they know), etc.

Then there are the providers who have the Offers forums, in which they can post their usual packages, or specials for hoiidays or just slow sales periods.

In my view, you need to do what's best for who is posting. I understand that the objective is to limit scam offers, however I'm hesitent to do something that limits what can be offered.

I agree, and the consquences of servicing the two types of members, means that your providing a different service for the two groups. The requests forums is something that benefits the would-be customer (assuming they exercise good judgment when they make their decisions).

The offers forums is a service for would-be hosts.

Limiting the scam offers, is probably best achieve by dealing with the industry itself and not with the forums. The scams are a result of poor regulation (both governmental and community) [Incidently I favour community regulation rather than governmental]

Cheers
Jeff

[Chicken]

Originally posted by IdologicJeff:

The scams are a result of poor regulation (both governmental and community) [Incidently I favour community regulation rather than governmental]
To be honest, I favor individual regulation over both community or governmental ;) :D What I mean is, that if you give your money to someone you know nothing about, then you should understand that you're taking a bigger risk then if you went with a provider who has been here for a bit, has a history with not only this community but also elsewhere, and/or was personally recommended to you by people you trust.

That's not to say give the new guy a shot, nor is that saying that someone who scams others shouldn't be dealt with and that it's OK (buyer beware, end of story, no no no). Just realize that there are greater risks involved, but that going with an older, more established provider, even with a history on the forum and/or elsewhere does not guarantee you good service, nor will that prevent you from being scammed/ripped off. You're less likely to be scammed though.

[IdologicJeff]

Originally posted by Chicken:

To be honest, I favor individual regulation over both community or governmental ;) :D What I mean is, that if you give your money to someone you know nothing about, then you should understand that you're taking a bigger risk then if you went with a provider who has been here for a bit, has a history with not only this community but also elsewhere, and/or was personally recommended to you by people you trust.


Freedom always require individual responsiblity.

However the problem with limiting your business to "only established hosts" is that new hosts don't get a chance to establish themselves. Though both Damiaan and I ran businesses before Idologic (habets.net for example) the Idologic name is still considered fairly new.

If it weren't for people taking a chance on us, we wouldn't have had the oppurtunitie to grow. This makes me at least a bit sensitive to the idea that only established hosts have credibility.

I know you weren't saying that, as you indicated trusted recommendations also count for something, but I thought I'd comment nonetheless.

Cheers
Jeff

[CrazyTech]

Chicken you summed up my viewpoint as well. It comes down to the person making the decision. It's not the job of the forum or even a government to police the industry, such moderation is not needed. There comes a time when you can police too much as well.

I really like a respect your policy on catering to the two types of audiences here at HHO. It seems to me that if you're going through taking a look at potential hosts, that common sense would apply. If Host A and Host B charge about the same rates, then you come upon Host C charging a fraction of the price; something should click in your head and you should at least do some more research. I know we all look for bargains, but even when buying a product that is much much cheaper, I take a second to look at the product and find out (to the best of my abilites) why this product is so much cheaper. Seems with such a 'risk' as webhosting can be (paying someone that you really have limited contact with) that many would think a little more before they act.

It comes down to the forums and those of us in the industry, to do what we can about educating those. Every little bit helps. Therefore, one of the major purposes of a forum such as HHO is to do just that and HHO happens to do a pretty darn good job of it in my opinion.

[Chicken]

Originally posted by CrazyTech:

It seems to me that if you're going through taking a look at potential hosts, that common sense would apply. If Host A and Host B charge about the same rates, then you come upon Host C charging a fraction of the price; something should click in your head and you should at least do some more research. I know we all look for bargains, but even when buying a product that is much much cheaper, I take a second to look at the product and find out (to the best of my abilites) why this product is so much cheaper. Seems with such a 'risk' as webhosting can be (paying someone that you really have limited contact with) that many would think a little more before they act.
Yes, do some research, ask why, think. Those who don't, may get burned, but it's a lesson learned. If you want to experiment and take a chance, then at least buy monthly and don't sign up for the whole year (just yet, until you've tested it for a few months). Use a payment method that protects you (such as most major credit cards).

Again thogh, that isn't to say that fraudsters who promise one thing and don't deliver should get away with it. I'm more than happy to do whatever I can to prevent them from ever offering services here, etc., however there's a limit to what we can do. I've seen suggestions of minimum pricing levels for offers, etc., and I won't go that far. We don't permit unlimited space/transfer offers or replies to requests though.

If you habitually PayPal money to people you don't know for products or services without researching or thinking, you will get ripped off, it's just a matter of when.

I do relaize that not everyone has the ability to pay with secure methods such as credit cards, and that some really don't have an understanding of the costs involved with providing web hosting services (thus they really don't know that $1/mo. for unlimited everything is unreasonable), however as was said, if you don't know something, you research it and find out.

This is not the only industry that has these issues. I was a photographer for some time and there are plenty of shady camera shops selling grey market goods for hundreds less. You have to research and know what you're getting yourself into. Some of it was good, some of it was bad.

[CrazyTech]

Exactly. Just a bit of thinking before you act can save you on down the road. People just simply don't want to take the time to think about it and it comes back to bite them pretty hard when someone takes their nice big yearly sum and runs with it.

As you said, there is only so much you can do about it, otherwise you'll defeat the very purpose of a community such as this and end up looking like a forum tyrant. I think this forum, although maybe not quite as active as WHT (but definitely getting there), has shown what your method can do. You don't have to wipe out the Requests forum. They're just a bit hidden and truly not one of the first things you seen upon your arrival. I think it has definitely encouraged more of a community discussion.