View Full Version : why just no one believes me?
NatureHosting
10-14-03, 10:28 AM
why just no one believes me
at what i offer?
price cheaper than anywhere else....
Is this some kind of feeble attempt at getting people to go and view your site and check out your "cheap" prices?
Who wants a DC in estonia? Do I really want to send you my servers, to a country where i will have no legal discourse if you just take them? No.
My visitors are from the US, your bandwidth isn't so great from over here.
You keep saying your bandwidth doesn't cost you anything, that doesn't make sense.
Your whole deal just doesn't add up.
Chet
NatureHosting
10-14-03, 10:50 AM
as i say....
i just want to talk about it....
you can bann me delete all posts
but answer first:
why people go somewhere and pay big money for that what others can give them for almost free???
and its not because its bad or some "cogent" staff or make some quick cash, just because this business give them 100% reward with that prices...
even if this not so big and known firm at all....
what would i do if i live here and i need to make a money for my life, all things just become this way...
NatureHosting
10-14-03, 10:52 AM
Originally posted by Chet:
Who wants a DC in estonia? Do I really want to send you my servers, to a country where i will have no legal discourse if you just take them? No.
My visitors are from the US, your bandwidth isn't so great from over here.
You keep saying your bandwidth doesn't cost you anything, that doesn't make sense.
Your whole deal just doesn't add up.
Chet
nice one Chet....
People go for quality. Not price.
Now im not saying your service is rubbish in anyway but from what i see its not guaranteed.
Now people would rather pay money for connectivity they know will be on for at least 99.9% of the time as opposed to a connection thats unreliable or slow.
Price isn't everything.
Ever heard the expression QUALITY NOT QUANTITY? Well in all honesty that applies here. Not everyone will use up 155mbps let alone even burst to that speed. So they'd rather if need be pay the same for a lesser ratio however receive higher quality.
In my last report from the tier one carriers. Estonia was on the last page on their scales for reliability in connectivity.
Also can you speak english properly? This isn't meant to be a complaint against you, just some constructive criticism. If you see there is no market for what you're selling in the US and UK why not sell in your own country? Or to another coutnry where there will be a demand?
Quote from your site...
We know well many technologies, such as : PHP, CSS, XML, MySQL, SSL, FTP...
NatureHosting
10-14-03, 11:01 AM
In estonia we have clients
its all estonian banks...
Eh? You have clients that are all banks?
I'll be back in 25mins...gonna buy dinner.
NatureHosting
10-14-03, 11:49 AM
Originally posted by NatureHosting:
In estonia we have clients
its all estonian banks...
yes. what such surprising you?
and what about my english - iam russian and i learned english not in school or any college, just by myself, at work...
I think your misunderstanding me.
Yes its great you've learnt english all yourself etc.
My last post was to let you know if nobody in US or UK wants to purchase your services why not offer it to countries that will want it ? Such as your own country or surrounding areas?
NatureHosting
10-14-03, 12:06 PM
nice idea
but...
Everyone want to buy in all countries.
We have clients from UK and US on shared hosting.
but simply we have collided that having started to offer people co-location and they do not trust that there can be all so cheap and with good quality :/
what about connection so:
to US - traceroute - 160 - 190ms
to any of europe country - 20 - 50ms
Just my opinion, but the bandwith you're offering is unrealistic.
If its a situation where you are not presently paying for you bandwith, (or its REALLY cheap as a result of government or private sector spending which has resulted in a massive excess resource situation) - 1 day this will catch up to you and your customers.
This is why North Americans are skeptical about the resources and price you offer.
1 word of advice if I many. Do not build your business on a price structure based on costs derived from an over capacity budget. Once the capacity begins to be used, and your present contract expires, your rates WILL go up. What effect will this have on your customers?
Now, if you can charge those prices, and get away with it (ie. be profitable), all the power to you. You will always face challenges dealing with the US or Canada from Europe, but by all means I urge you to advertise and grow your business.
But please dont ask me why I dont believe you. I do believe you. Im just not sure you are approaching this correctly.
Just my thoughts....
I would have to agree. Why not try and grow locally or regionally? If your connection is fast for your area, your customers will love it. They will not find it strange to have their computers in Estonia.
My old accountant had his family from estonia.
He wanted to go back and make an investment in Estonia after they were free from Russian rule. So he looked around at what was left open because the Russians used to do it. It was crematoriums. Now he didn't got outside the country even to the other states nearby who were in the same predicament to look for customers, he stayed in the country.
He first had to educate the people. I guess in the old days, cremations were only done by the Russians, so people didn't trust them. They would have to send the bodies to moscow and get who knows what back.
To win people over, they actually had coupons for cremations printed up - he trusted the local Estonians he was working with. In the USA such coupons would have been considered grotesque, in the Estonia they caught on. His man in Estonia understood the people and the business there and they rapidly grew their business. According to him, they are now the largest set of crematories in Estonia and have spread to nearby countries.
Why tell this little story? Because you probably know the Estonian people better than any other DC. You probably know the people in the surrounding countries better than any other DC. But you may not know the US market (which this forums seems to be generally slanted towards.). So play your strength, play to where people are familiar. While you may have less possible customers compared to the USA, you have the chance to become the leader of your region, to be known as the rack shack of Estonia as it were.
Why not spend your time on that effort instead of trying to crack an already crowded US market which fears and is hesitant of any company overseas?
Chet
ps. I wish I could remember the company name to see if you had heard of them, the account was a straight shooter so I believed his story.
Good advice and info Andrew.
DAMNIT !!! What have i told you guys about me always the first on the second page all by myself? Grrr.
LOL - its a conspiracy
Chicken, keep up the great work, we are slowly driving Adam insane :) :) :)
lol you and Turkey won't drive me insane!
IM NORMAL!! I SWEAR TO GOD IM NORMAL!! JSUT LIKE THE REST OF YOU!!!
LOL - if youre "normal" like me....
Youre in big trouble :)
lol!! Sorry but i just realised i said Turkey in my post instead of Chicken :eek:
Oh my god you have gotten to me!! ARGHHH!!! CONSPIRATOR!
NatureHosting
10-14-03, 01:18 PM
anyway
thnx you all....
markblair
10-14-03, 03:16 PM
Originally posted by NatureHosting:
why people go somewhere and pay big money for that what others can give them for almost free???
For me, much of it has to do with reputation. I personally have never heard of your company. That isn't bad but you can't expect people to jump ship from their current providers just because you offer something for a cheaper price. Plus, remember, a ton of "hosts" offer their services for a cheap price and people may be finally getting the picture that it isn't possible for that to exist. There's a difference between cheap and inexpensive.
markblair
10-14-03, 03:19 PM
Oh', also... Don't be in such a hurry to grow real fast. I've seen hosts (i.e. Dot5Hosting) do this and they fall flat on their faces. They look bad in the end, have nothing but server issues and can't fix them because they have to tend to all the new signups. Take your time, get your name out there and if you do things right, people will signup. Good luck either way!
Chicken
10-14-03, 07:33 PM
I know Chet mentioned colocation, but is that what we're talking about? I haven't seen the thread starter actually state what services he's questioning.
Originally posted by Chicken:
I know Chet mentioned colocation, but is that what we're talking about? I haven't seen the thread starter actually state what services he's questioning.
He appears to be questioning shared hosting prices, though I havent heard of any banks that sign up for a shared hosting account (Though they appear to offer dedicated as well)
My impression of what is happening here (though this is just a guess)
- Government or Private sector invested money in infrastructure in Estonia.
- If hes telling the truth about the banks, they may be the only Data Center in the country that can handle institutions like banks
- They are probably looking at a capacity that is much larger then the demand
-As a result, they have targetted US markets with a very aggressive pricing format (with currency exchanges, etc - Im sure their pricing is fairly profitable)
-They havent received the response they were hoping for and are trying to figure out why
Obviously feedback from propestive customers has them wondering why people dont trust them because of their pricing. Once the technology matures in Estonia, I think they will have a better understanding of why Americans are hesitant.
I have family in parts of Europe, and they have experienced the same thing (from a hosting perspective). they really felt the pinch when the Euro came in because their fees, when translated to the Euro wasnt nearly as profitable (especially considering their costs increased to come into line with the rest of Europe and not a direct conversion of funds - old currency to Euro)
why people go somewhere and pay big money for that what others can give them for almost free??? In addition to everything else noted, the very first thing I notice, every time I have visited your web site, is that it loads quite slowly. If I were searching for a host this would immediately turn me off. You may want to try a nice lean web site design to speed things up a bit. The connectivity from me to you is rough as it is and when you add in heavy graphics it gets worse.
Many will not bother to go beyond the first page if it takes too long to load....
NatureHosting
10-15-03, 03:50 AM
//quote
The connectivity from me to you is rough as it is and when you add in heavy graphics it gets worse.
//quote
every of our clients likes our http speed
and also ftp speed ...
they from US and UK.
as i say we have to US - 190ms
to UK - 50ms
ive checked this every time new clients signup.
and connection depends your location.
NatureHosting
10-15-03, 04:03 AM
traceroute to www.above.net (207.126.96.163): 2-20 hops, 38 byte packets
2 194.106.111.1 tix-CR.online.ee 1.87 ms (ttl=127)
3 212.47.215.4 r20-ge-0-0-0-80-Tln-TIX.EE.DataBone.net 3.58 ms (ttl=252!)
4 213.192.190.17 at3-1-0-101.br2.esp1.fi.eunetip.net 5.23 ms (ttl=251!)
5 213.192.191.145 so1-0-0-0.r1.ffm1.de.eunetip.net 32.6 ms (ttl=250!)
6 80.81.192.226 de-cix.fra.above.net 32.0 ms (ttl=250)
7 216.200.116.209 so-0-1-0.cr2.fra1.de.mfnx.net 35.3 ms (ttl=248!)
8 64.125.30.150 pos10-0.mpr1.ams1.nl.above.net 37.6 ms (ttl=248)
9 208.184.231.54 pos2-0.cr1.ams2.nl.above.net 39.2 ms (ttl=247)
10 64.125.31.153 so-5-0-0.cr1.lhr3.uk.above.net 44.7 ms (ttl=245!)
11 64.125.31.186 so-7-0-0.cr1.dca2.us.above.net 118 ms (ttl=244!)
12 208.184.233.133 so-3-0-0.mpr3.sjc2.us.above.net 183 ms (ttl=243!)
13 64.125.30.90 so-2-0-0.er10a.sjc2.us.above.net 189 ms (ttl=241!)
14 64.124.216.13 outside.fw1.sjc2.mfnx.net 182 ms (ttl=242)
15 207.126.96.163 www.above.net 190 ms (ttl=240!)
traceroute to 194.106.111.1 (194.106.111.1), 30 hops max, 40 byte packets
1 inside.fw1.sjc2.mfnx.net (208.184.213.129) 0.302 ms 3.744 ms 0.222 ms
2 99.ge-5-1-1.er10a.sjc2.us.above.net (64.124.216.10) 0.534 ms 0.526 ms 0.516 ms
3 so-1-0-0.mpr4.sjc2.us.above.net (64.125.30.93) 0.549 ms 0.519 ms 0.547 ms
4 so-5-1-0.cr2.dca2.us.above.net (64.125.30.165) 76.419 ms 76.488 ms 76.406 ms
5 so-0-0-0.cr1.dca2.us.above.net (208.184.233.121) 76.690 ms 76.397 ms 76.388 ms
6 so-6-0-0.cr1.lhr3.uk.above.net (64.125.31.185) 151.370 ms 148.281 ms 148.233 ms
7 pos9-0.cr1.ams2.nl.above.net (64.125.31.154) 153.915 ms 153.982 ms 153.941 ms
8 pos14-0.mpr1.ams1.nl.above.net (208.184.231.53) 154.444 ms 154.414 ms 154.637 ms
9 so-1-3-0.cr2.fra1.de.above.net (64.125.30.149) 161.116 ms 161.163 ms 161.119 ms
10 pos3-0.pr1.fra1.de.mfnx.net (216.200.116.210) 161.054 ms 161.096 ms 161.133 ms
11 ge0-0-0.r1.ffm1.de.eunetip.net (80.81.192.144) 156.469 ms 156.657 ms 156.712 ms
12 so0-0-0-0.br2.esp1.fi.eunetip.net (213.192.191.146) 189.016 ms 188.750 ms 188.750 ms
13 r20-at-0-3-0-101-Tln-VS1.EE.DataBone.net (213.192.190.18) 190.201 ms 190.805 ms 190.760 ms
14 tix-CR.online.ee (194.106.111.1) 188.950 ms 188.842 ms 187.518 ms
and as you see speed the same from us (Estonia) and from above.net (USA)
I'm sorry. I thought you were seeking advise/suggestions/ideas. If you're already certain that everything about your offer is correct, your connectivity is the best, and there are no problems with anything surrounding your services, then none of us could really say what the problem may be outside of "everyone else" being confused and silly. With that said, unless it is true that everything you are doing and working with is perfect, then I would suggest part of the problem may be that you are not yet open to suggestions and the inability to consider what others offer you may be part of the reason you are having problems that cause you to create posts that ask "why".
A wiser approach is to take constructive criticism and really research it just in case there may be something there that will guide you into a positive change. and connection depends your location. This is very true. A good host understands this and does everything in its power to ensure they are offering the best connectivity they can to as many locations as possible. If someone is screaming "too slow" the host should consider that person's location and see if there are possible improvements available...
Since it may just be "my location" that's the problem... I took the time to seek out a third-party's advise on the issue...
Here's the speed for your home page with 78 images on it according to NetMechanic.
14.4Kbps == 122.47 seconds
28.8Kbps == 64.23 seconds
56Kbps == 35.63 seconds
ISDN (128Kbps) == 19.10 seconds
T1 (1.44 Mbps) == 7.16 seconds
Even though our main page is too heavy and I could never argue the fact that it should be lighter, someone on a 14.4 connection could still load it in half the time it would take them to load yours... Even a T-1 on your sight would feel the wait... look at your watch and count out 7 or 8 seconds...
1 one thousand
2 one thousand
3 one thousand
4 one thousand
5 one thousand
6 one thousand
7 one thousand
And that's someone on a T-1.
Your connectivity may be fine....but your web page is heavy and it does take quite a while to load...even if the person has superb connectivity. You, and your target market may feel this is fine, as you have noted. But if your seeking advise about why potential clients may be turning their heads away from your services, the suggestions provided in this thread may be worthy of consideration.
MANY people have the bad habit of asking "why" for a number of reasons yet they are unable to except the answers. Until those people are able to work with constructive criticism in a positive way, no amount of reasoning is going to help to change the situation in a way the one asking is hoping for.
You posted the tracert's while I was posting.... Here's the same for your review...
tracert to above.net (207.126.96.163), 30 hops max, 38 byte packets
1 63.236.215.gw.futurequest.net (63.236.215.1) 0.562 ms 0.852 ms 0.869 ms
2 brdr-01-1 (63.239.113.254) 1.677 ms 2.241 ms 1.326 ms
3 tpa-edge-03.inet.qwest.net (63.144.0.105) 5.737 ms 4.852 ms 5.791 ms
4 tpa-core-01.inet.qwest.net (205.171.27.25) 4.993 ms 5.614 ms 4.849 ms
5 dca-core-02.inet.qwest.net (205.171.5.73) 30.243 ms 31.924 ms 31.102 ms
6 dca-brdr-01.inet.qwest.net (205.171.9.54) 31.267 ms 31.282 ms 30.303 ms
7 so-1-3-1.pr1.iad1.us.mfnx.net (208.184.233.33) 31.657 ms 30.858 ms 31.272 ms
8 so-2-0-0.cr2.iad1.us.above.net (208.185.0.146) 32.069 ms 30.253 ms 31.189 ms
9 so-1-0-0.cr2.dca2.us.above.net (208.184.233.129) 31.224 ms 31.571 ms 31.352 ms
10 so-6-3-0.mpr4.sjc2.us.above.net (64.125.30.166) 86.650 ms 85.794 ms 85.919 ms
11 so-0-0-0.er10a.sjc2.us.above.net (64.125.30.94) 85.803 ms 85.754 ms 85.818 ms
12 outside.fw1.sjc2.mfnx.net (64.124.216.13) 86.004 ms 86.069 ms 86.867 ms
13 www.above.net (207.126.96.163) 86.829 ms 86.906 ms 87.953 ms
tracert to 194.106.111.1 (194.106.111.1), 30 hops max, 38 byte packets
1 63.236.215.gw.futurequest.net (63.236.215.1) 1.078 ms 1.043 ms 0.890 ms
2 brdr-01-1 (63.239.113.254) 2.040 ms 1.922 ms 1.986 ms
3 tpa-edge-03.inet.qwest.net (63.144.0.105) 5.764 ms 5.913 ms 14.760 ms
4 tpa-core-01.inet.qwest.net (205.171.27.25) 6.776 ms 5.884 ms 6.893 ms
5 tpa-core-02.inet.qwest.net (205.171.27.182) 7.783 ms 6.801 ms 7.726 ms
6 iah-core-01.inet.qwest.net (205.171.5.106) 25.485 ms 29.599 ms 25.704 ms
7 iah-core-02.inet.qwest.net (205.171.31.2) 64.948 ms 26.741 ms 25.818 ms
8 dal-core-01.inet.qwest.net (205.171.8.125) 30.997 ms 31.267 ms 33.259 ms
9 dal-core-02.inet.qwest.net (205.171.25.130) 28.977 ms 28.816 ms 29.193 ms
10 dap-brdr-01.inet.qwest.net (205.171.225.2) 30.235 ms 30.294 ms 29.097 ms
11 so-1-2-0.edge1.Dallas1.Level3.net (209.245.240.165) 37.820 ms 36.439 ms 36.854 ms
12 so-1-2-0.bbr1.Dallas1.level3.net (209.244.15.161) 37.083 ms 36.932 ms 36.027 ms
13 so-2-2-0.bbr2.Washington1.level3.net (64.159.0.134) 48.880 ms 49.224 ms 49.391 ms
14 so-0-0-0.mp2.London2.Level3.net (212.187.128.133) 120.290 ms 120.766 ms 120.139 ms
15 so-0-0-0.mp2.Stockholm1.Level3.net (212.187.128.225) 157.136 ms 157.123 ms 157.122 ms
16 pos11-0.hsipaccess2.Stockholm1.Level3.net (213.242.68.206) 156.270 ms 157.083 ms 157.201 ms
17 ge0-0-0-0.r1.sto1.se.eunetip.net (213.242.69.10) 158.022 ms 158.398 ms 158.270 ms
18 so3-0-0-0.br1.hel1.fi.eunetip.net (213.192.191.129) 162.940 ms 163.760 ms 163.000 ms
19 ge2-3-0-0.br2.esp1.fi.eunetip.net (213.192.191.45) 163.149 ms 162.918 ms 162.974 ms
20 r20-at-0-3-0-101-Tln-VS1.EE.DataBone.net (213.192.190.18) 165.269 ms 166.246 ms 164.919 ms
21 tix-CR.online.ee (194.106.111.1) 166.059 ms 167.937 ms 166.891 ms
As you can see, there is quite a difference from my side of the fence between above.net and yours...
Too slow. On a 45mbt DS3 at the momen. Got a 800ms ping average. :eek:
NatureHosting
10-15-03, 06:06 AM
Deb
as i see you have more fastest ping to one of our estonian server.
Nature, heres a good article you may want to read.
http://www.webhostdir.com/news/articles/showarticle.asp?id=1139
Chicken, sorry about the source :)
OK I might be missing something, but Deb after 13 hops you are still in the USA?!??
For the record here is my tracert to 194.106.111.1
3 core4.ge0-0-0-bbnet1.bsn.pnap.net (63.251.128.6) 0.841 ms 0.671 ms 0.820 ms
4 gigabitethernet5-2-113.hsipaccess1.Boston1.Level3.net (63.211.175.25) 0.933 ms 0.659 ms 0.716 ms
5 ge-6-2-1.mp2.Boston1.Level3.net (64.159.4.161) 1.409 ms 1.241 ms 1.136 ms
6 so-0-1-0.bbr1.NewYork1.level3.net (64.159.1.41) 5.805 ms 5.830 ms 6.078 ms
7 so-0-0-0.mp1.London1.Level3.net (212.187.128.157) 71.430 ms 71.565 ms 71.458 ms
8 so-0-0-0.mp2.Stockholm1.Level3.net (212.187.128.225) 108.298 ms 108.418 ms 108.347 ms
9 pos11-0.hsipaccess2.Stockholm1.Level3.net (213.242.68.206) 108.212 ms 108.275 ms 108.084 ms
10 ge0-0-0-0.r1.sto1.se.eunetip.net (213.242.69.10) 108.317 ms 108.360 ms 108.284 ms
11 so3-0-0-0.br1.hel1.fi.eunetip.net (213.192.191.129) 114.615 ms 114.528 ms 114.567 ms
12 ge2-3-0-0.br2.esp1.fi.eunetip.net (213.192.191.45) 114.647 ms 114.700 ms 114.599 ms
13 r20-at-0-3-0-101-Tln-VS1.EE.DataBone.net (213.192.190.18) 116.850 ms 116.573 ms 118.406 ms
14 tix-CR.online.ee (194.106.111.1) 118.214 ms 119.070 ms 118.160 ms
With above.net coming at 15 hops + 85ms, I don't see that much difference.
Can someone please enlighten me as to where the speed issue is coming in?
NatureHosting
10-16-03, 08:23 AM
hehe
thnx to all of you who tried to explain to me a situation,
we have received 2 clients, and we are happy like kids :)
this is not advertising, mods can close topic if needed :)
Chicken
10-16-03, 03:10 PM
I think the speed issue was mostly the heavy pages. I recall loading that site from home, it was OK (SBC DSL), but from this connection, ti is dog slow. Regardless, this tread was questionable to start with, and...
Originally posted by NatureHosting:
mods can close topic if needed :)
Done.
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