View Full Version : Web Design.. Credit at bottom?
I'm just curious to know what some of you are think..
We are having a design done for us and the designer in the mockup previews has included a credit at the bottom of the design, we feel that it shouldn't be there because after all, we are buying the design and they aren't giving us a discount to have their credit at the bottom.
What would you do?
JeremyV
07-07-03, 05:17 PM
I've had a few designs done for various projects of mine, and they have never required a credit be in place. I have seen discounts being applied if this was the case, but typically I don't think that should be a requirement, since like you said, you are paying for it.
I have seen a lot of ceonex designs with a credit at the bottom, and if you're paying tens of thousands of dollars for a design like that, I couldn't see being forced to have it either :confused:
I guess in short what I'm trying to say is... I don't know whether or not that is the right thing to do or not.
Living Media
07-07-03, 06:07 PM
Check the wording of the contract. Was there a copyright specified in there? If not, then it can be argued either way. If the designer has a regular pricing that includes a discount for including a copyright notice, and you're not being given any kind of discount, then I would remove it.
There's two schools of thought here:
* leave the copyright on - it's a matter of courtesy
* leave the copyright off - you're not paying to be someone else's billboard
When I do things for free, I kind of like to have the copyright notice left in place. Some of my paying design clients have suggested a visible design copyright notice; I always worded it specifically to say "Designed by [ myname ]"
Maybe suggest that they can leave a copyright notice in the commented code, or in a meta tag, that will identify the site as being designed by Whosit for Whatsit.
Chicken
07-07-03, 10:11 PM
Originally posted by Robert:
We are having a design done for us and the designer in the mockup previews has included a credit at the bottom of the design, we feel that it shouldn't be there because after all, we are buying the design and they aren't giving us a discount to have their credit at the bottom.
What would you do?
The designer is the owner and creator of the design. Just because you are paying for the service of having someone design a site, this does not mean you own the design, unless rights to the design have been given to you via the agreement or if that agreement states you may remove the credit. Discount or not, that doesn't matter. Who owns the design and what does the agreement say? That's all that matters.
Originally posted by JeremyV:
I've had a few designs done for various projects of mine, and they have never required a credit be in place. I have seen discounts being applied if this was the case, but typically I don't think that should be a requirement, since like you said, you are paying for it.
They are the designer, the creator and owner of the work, unless agreed to otherwise. They can not credit themselves, paying for it (as said above), isn't the issue.
I have seen a lot of ceonex designs with a credit at the bottom, and if you're paying tens of thousands of dollars for a design like that, I couldn't see being forced to have it either :confused:
The amount of money is irrelevant.
Originally posted by Living Media:
Check the wording of the contract. Was there a copyright specified in there? If not, then it can be argued either way.
If there wasn't any mention of ownership or copyright, then it can not be argued either way. The creator of the work owns it.
If the designer has a regular pricing that includes a discount for including a copyright notice, and you're not being given any kind of discount, then I would remove it.
Again, 'regular pricing' or 'discount for including a copyright notice' are irrelevant in this case. The only thing that matters is the agreement.
There's two schools of thought here:
* leave the copyright on - it's a matter of courtesy
* leave the copyright off - you're not paying to be someone else's billboard
That should say:
* leave the copyright on - it's a matter of law
I know some people have a hard time accepting that when they pay a designer to design a site, most often they are paying for the service of designing, not for the actual design itself. That is, unless stated otherwise in your agreement.
People feel that if they pay $10,000 to have a site designed... it should be their site. Often this isn't the case. In fact, you can't even alter the design, maybe not even update the pages. Doing so would be a violation of copyright and you could be sued. You wouldn't think eh?
The bottom line is that if owning the design is important to you, you need to be sure that is stated in the contract (agreement). Same goes with modifyig and editing pages. It needs to b spelled out. Do not assume anything as it might end up costing you in the future.
I'll also note that if you were to hire a web designer (employee) to work for your company to create web pages (that is their job, and you pay them to design web pages for you and/or company clients), then the company would own the designs, not the designer. It doesn't apply in this case, ut if anyone wants info on the distinction, I'll try to find you something. Only if you're thinking of hiring a full/part-time designer though.
This is called, ''work made for hire'' and it is work prepared by an employee within the scope of his or her employment. You hire an employee to fill a web design postion and that what he/she does, design web sites for you. This does not apply to contract work.
UH-Matt
07-08-03, 12:43 AM
I know with ceonex designs its more of a fashion statement.
Like when you buy an expensive shirt and dont mind the logo of the company who made it being in view. People who spend $20k on a Ceonex design are proud of the site and want to "show off" the designer label.
net-trend
07-08-03, 01:48 AM
Wow that's some food for thought Chicken.
But in any sense, read the contract. If in the contract it stipulates that you own the "design", make sure the designer takes his credit off.
But all laws aside, you did pay for something to be made and hence you should be the only owner to it and should be able to modify as you see fit. And if you don't want to credit that guy, you can always modify the design yourself after it's all done.
UH-Matt
07-08-03, 01:51 AM
And if you don't want to credit that guy, you can always modify the design yourself after it's all done.
That would be considered extremely rude. Just get clarification and agreement up front. You dont want to be argueing with the designer after the site is done.
net-trend
07-08-03, 02:02 AM
Originally posted by UH-Matt:
That would be considered extremely rude. Just get clarification and agreement up front. You dont want to be argueing with the designer after the site is done.
Yes it is rude and may hurt his/her feelings. But the design is made for you and if you have the rights for it, you can do what you want to it.
Well there wasn't an agreement. I saw their work on WHT, contacted them via AIM, told them what I needed, they told me how much, I said Ok and that was done. Looking over their Terms of Service, nowhere does it state that they will own the rights to the design and neither does it state that I must kept the credit at the bottom.
And Chicken, thank you.
Chicken
07-08-03, 05:27 AM
Robert, I'd initiate an agreement (even at this late stage). If it's not specifically stated that you own the design, then they own the design (and can indicate so at the bottom of the page). Doing this now will be touchy, but if you present and word this right, it shouldn't be too bad (in theory).
If your prime concern is the credit at the bottom, you can often pay a bit extra to have credit removed. This is common with scripts and design. Note that paying to remove the credit does not mean you own the design, it just removes the credit. For example, I paid to have the credit removed for HHO's forum design, but I do not own the design. I use it, but could not sell it (which I could do if I owned it).
Originally posted by net-trend:
But all laws aside, you did pay for something to be made and hence you should be the only owner to it and should be able to modify as you see fit. And if you don't want to credit that guy, you can always modify the design yourself after it's all done.
I'm not sure I understand, "But all laws aside..." -as that is the issue (???). If you do not own the design, you have as much right to being the owner of the design and being able to modify it as taking another person's web site (HostRocket's for example), modifying it, removing the copyright, and calling it your own.
Law is what decided this, not me, so don't shoot the messenger please!
nameslave
07-08-03, 06:38 AM
Well ... the question actually remains whether the designer owns the design. While it may be a rule of thumb (or conventional industry practice) in the past, more and more website owners are buying out everything from texts, graphics (therefore prefer royalty-free images) to codes (HTML and other scripts). It's a capitalist world we're in! And from my own experience, it's getting more and more difficult to try keeping the copyright of your "design" or even codes, unless you are really "big".
But yes, both parties need to make it clear in the agreement (don't tell me that you don't have any; you'll need one no matter how crude it is). I have mine (as a designer) written in, not for copyright but as some kind of reciprocal link since I maintain a directory which lists my clients as well. To me, that link at the bottom (usually in lighter color such as "#999999" and smaller font size like "verdana, -2" in order to make it less intruding) is more of exposure purpose than ownership which I don't insist at all.
net-trend
07-08-03, 07:11 AM
Originally posted by Chicken:
I'm not sure I understand, "But all laws aside..." -as that is the issue (???).
Sorry for not being clear. My point is, if there wasn't any laws regarding this. But like it's been stated there are laws. So what I mentioned above was what one can do in the land of the lawless-ness.
I spoke to the actual designer, and not the sales rep. and the designer told me I would receive "PSD Files, Sliced HTML and rights to the design."
I asked if I was able to modify it, add to it, delete from it as I see right and he said "Yes".
I haven't brought up the copyright because I don't want to get in an arguement or for him to try to "sneak it" in there by adding it to an image instead.
Chicken
07-08-03, 03:22 PM
"Rights to the design" could be interpreted as ownership (I'm not sure what else it could be construed as, however don't take anything for granted). It sounds like you are being given ownership, and can modify/add/delete the pages.
To give you another example, you can modify and change vbulletin, however you can't do this and then turn around and sell modified versions. You still won't own the script.
What makes your case grey is the lack of a clear agreement with terms. What you've run into is a result of not having everything spelled out. It protects the designer and the client.
The only thing I'm not sure of is if the phrase, "rights to the design" equals ownership. I can't tell you that. It sounds like it does, but you have to consult someone else on that one.
What's funny is the actual designer doesn't care about $ as much as the sales person, and he doesn't care about how much it really is worth, he wants to make a good impression.
The sales guy won't stop talking about when he gets paid.. very unprofessional.
GrandmasterB
07-08-03, 04:41 PM
If you're happy with the design, and think they've done a good job with it...leave it on as a courtesy. I don't know if anyone thought about it, but if they add your site to their portfolio...isn't that advertising for you? It goes both ways.
nameslave
07-08-03, 05:13 PM
Originally posted by Robert:
What's funny is the actual designer doesn't care about $ as much as the sales person, and he doesn't care about how much it really is worth ...
I thought those people were called ARTISTS ... like Vincent Van Gogh who didn't sell one single template ... oh no ... painting and lived in poverty for most of his life. :D
Originally posted by GrandmasterB:
If you're happy with the design, and think they've done a good job with it...leave it on as a courtesy. I don't know if anyone thought about it, but if they add your site to their portfolio...isn't that advertising for you? It goes both ways.
I really never though it like that.
Thanks.
When i had my website designed, the designer left a credit at the bottom with the URL of his website. I didnt mind at all, i think that if you are happy with the designers work and you didnt sell your left leg to buy it then what is the harm in saying "hey, these guys designed my site and did a great job!".
regards,
Does anyone have a template for a design contract? Or any other hosting / design contracts?
Yes, I know, having a lawyer write one up for me would be better in the long run, but I cannot afford the $400 or so the lawyers around here want to write up each contract. Which of course they already have in template form...
Originally posted by Robert:
I'm just curious to know what some of you are think..
We are having a design done for us and the designer in the mockup previews has included a credit at the bottom of the design, we feel that it shouldn't be there because after all, we are buying the design and they aren't giving us a discount to have their credit at the bottom.
What would you do?
Personal Opinion: I understand designers make them, but if you buy them they are YOURS! I don't think they have any right to put credit at the bottom, unless they want to take off some money to have it there. But in my case, I am having a design from redo the design and I have no problem giving them credit. But I think if you’re paying for it, they should not be able to put credit at the bottom with out permission form you
bradley
09-19-03, 11:05 PM
Originally posted by exasko:
But I think if you’re paying for it, they should not be able to put credit at the bottom with out permission form you
That's exactly why I make it clear in my contracts! Ppl don't seem to mind as long they know from the beginning.
bradley... if I may ask you just as a question....
why if some one is paying you to create a design, why should you be able to put your company info at the bottom of the page?
like IBM they create big compaines websites and maintain them... if you allow them to take credit for there work, they will reduce the price your paying them
but if your paying them for there work, you can tell them that you want no trace of them on the website.. i think that is fair. if you pay you should have full rights to everything
Chicken
09-20-03, 04:47 AM
Originally posted by exasko:
Personal Opinion: I understand designers make them, but if you buy them they are YOURS! I don't think they have any right to put credit at the bottom, unless they want to take off some money to have it there. But I think if you’re paying for it, they should not be able to put credit at the bottom with out permission form you
why if some one is paying you to create a design, why should you be able to put your company info at the bottom of the page?
Regarding the top part, you aren't buying 'them' which is probably your confusion. If you hire a designer to work for you (into your company, a paid employee, etc.), then the work they do for you during their employment would be owned by you. In other words, if WebDesignCo., Inc. hired me on as an web designer employee, any web sites I design for clients of WebDesignCo., Inc. are the property of WebDesignCo., Inc. (which would also include any work done on WebDesignCo., Inc.'s own web site).
In all other cases...
As you said, "I understand designers make them..." -DESIGNERS, not you. If you made it, you'd own it, but you didn't. Sopmeone else did. They own the rights to what they created. You are paying them for their time, for the service, for their abilities, *not* for ownership of the design, unless that is spelled out in the contract. They have every right to put their name (as the owner of the work), on the bottom of the site, and they don't need your permission to do so.
This says it best though...
"why if some one is paying you to create a design, why should you be able to put your company info at the bottom of the page?"
Exactly. You are paying them to create a design. You are not paying them for ownership of the design itself. It's the service, the invisible aspects of design that you can't see or touch.
Of course anything can be spelled out in a contract, so if owning the design is important to you, then be sure it's thoroughly covered.
Originally posted by Chicken:
Regarding the top part, you aren't buying 'them' which is probably your confusion. If you hire a designer to work for you (into your company, a paid employee, etc.), then the work they do for you during their employment would be owned by you. In other words, if WebDesignCo., Inc. hired me on as an web designer employee, any web sites I design for clients of WebDesignCo., Inc. are the property of WebDesignCo., Inc. (which would also include any work done on WebDesignCo., Inc.'s own web site).
In all other cases...
As you said, "I understand designers make them..." -DESIGNERS, not you. If you made it, you'd own it, but you didn't. Sopmeone else did. They own the rights to what they created. You are paying them for their time, for the service, for their abilities, *not* for ownership of the design, unless that is spelled out in the contract. They have every right to put their name (as the owner of the work), on the bottom of the site, and they don't need your permission to do so.
This says it best though...
"why if some one is paying you to create a design, why should you be able to put your company info at the bottom of the page?"
Exactly. You are paying them to create a design. You are not paying them for ownership of the design itself. It's the service, the invisible aspects of design that you can't see or touch.
Of course anything can be spelled out in a contract, so if owning the design is important to you, then be sure it's thoroughly covered. Well said!
Robert,
customer is always right. So if the designer thinks differ may be you should think and change your designer?:-)
bradley
10-08-03, 04:39 PM
Originally posted by exasko:
bradley... if I may ask you just as a question....
why if some one is paying you to create a design, why should you be able to put your company info at the bottom of the page?
I'm only a few weeks behind on answering this. I some how overlooked it.
My response: It is similar to buying Microsoft Office. You pay a butt-load of money for software so you should own it, right? You should be able to alter the code and take off all Microsoft references, right? No. You just have a license to use it. Microsoft still owns the product. They are allowing you to use it.
Ok... let's see if I get a more relevant example. Oh, yeah... I'm a photographer by hobby. Really. Any how, when some one hires me for a photo shoot, they do not own the pictures. They are always mine. They cannot make copies without my permission. Even if they're paying me $10,000 (which doesn't happen enough, I must say!), I still retain the rights to all photos. They cannot alter them or reproduce them. Many studios even put their credit on the picture itself. This is standard practice.
And artists always sign their work.
For better examples, just look at Chicken's good post above.
FWIW, the contract I use gives copyright of the design to the client upon final payment. It also states that a link and credit will be given to me on the homepage. Finally, they grant me rights to use the design for promotion, marketing, etc.
If a client prefers not have a link to my site or wants to keep me from using the design for promotion, then I will gladly take out that part of the contract for a fee.
Nemeliza
10-14-03, 01:03 PM
If you dont want the signature there and your paying for the design then the designer should just remove it no questions asked. They are providing you a service which should be to your specs unless otherwise discussed
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