mil22
07-04-04, 04:30 PM
We thought we were getting a great deal at Angel Networkz - a $30-$40 server if we paid up front. We sent our $300 for 10 months and had our server set up in about 2 days, which was 24 hours later than they'd told us. But this was the least of our worries... :(
There's nothing in the Terms of Service about OSes and we decided to install our favorite OS, Debian, under a chroot. Before long we had a custom partition scheme set up with Fedora on one and Debian on the other, but it did take a few reboots before it was stable. Like a headmaster learning what a naughty pupil had done, they jumped on us when they noticed we weren't running Fedora, and were rude about our using Debian:
Angel Support:
Btw, you do realise that you've voided your support by doing that right?
You shouldn't be installing another OS on there in the first place.
Us:
No, we didn't realize that we had voided our support or that installing another OS was not permitted, because this is not mentioned anywhere in the Terms of Service posted on your website or provided to us when we signed up.
One time we needed them to choose a different option in LILO. That's all we needed. They told us this would cost $25! We agreed to pay, conditional on them allowing us to run Debian. They consented and rebooted the box:
Angel Support:
There will be a fee of $25 to fix this mistake and $100 if we have to reinstall to fix it.
Us:
We are happy to pay the $25 fix fee (looks like it's fixed now anyway) providing that you agree that we can continue to run our Debian installation as the main OS on this box. If you will not allow this, we would like a refund on our server as we will simply switch to managed.com.
Angel Support:
If you want to run it so be it but be aware of the following:
#1 We take zero responsibility for the stability and uptime of the server
#2 Any support required by us will be billable at $25/hour with a one hour minimum. Payment of $25 for tonights fix can be sent via PayPal to billing@angelnetworkz.net
This seemed reasonable, and our server was back online. The next day we had to request another reboot, this time a simple one - we just needed them to press the reset button. However this one took 20 hours, and as far as we can deduce, they actually pulled the plug because we hadn't paid the $25 from the previous day's reboot yet. They hadn't even specified the due date or payment terms (net 30 anyone?) but in a sudden revelation of a random and unannounced policy we were told:
If this fee is not paid it will be deducted from your refund plus a $10 non payment penalty as it's due now, not at the end of the month.
Even after we'd paid up, it was another 8 hours before the server was turned back on, despite us updating our ticket. :angry: Here's proof that the server was turned off:
<<snip>>
Jun 26 20:50:01 (none) lpd[630]: restarted
Jun 26 20:50:08 (none) kernel: Linux Kernel Card Services
Jun 26 20:50:08 (none) kernel: options: [pci] [cardbus] [pm]
Jun 26 20:50:08 (none) kernel: Intel ISA PCIC probe: not found.
Jun 26 21:10:00 (none) -- MARK --
Jun 27 16:46:45 (none) syslogd 1.4.1#10: restart.
Jun 27 16:46:45 (none) kernel: klogd 1.4.1#10, log source = /proc/kmsg started.
Jun 27 16:46:45 (none) kernel: Linux version 2.4.25-1-686 (herbert@gondolin)
<<snip>>
Jun 27 17:06:45 (none) -- MARK --
Jun 27 17:26:45 (none) -- MARK --
Jun 27 17:46:45 (none) -- MARK --
Jun 27 18:06:45 (none) -- MARK --
Jun 27 18:26:45 (none) -- MARK --
Jun 27 18:46:45 (none) -- MARK --
Jun 27 19:06:45 (none) -- MARK --
Jun 27 19:26:45 (none) -- MARK --
Jun 27 19:46:45 (none) -- MARK --
<<snip>>
After 21:10-21:30 there are no --MARK--s. And the later trace shows that it wasn't a kernel crash - the same kernel ran fine for many hours the next day.
Meanwhile they continued to be abrupt, despite having agreed to allow Debian. This went against the agreement we had with them for the $25.
Angel Support, in ticket:
You shouldn't have been attempting to install Debian ontop of your Fedora installation and these issues wouldn't have occured.
The explanation for 20 hours downtime? That seemed to depend on who we asked!
Angel Support, in support ticket:
Please keep in mind that we have to send a techincan to the data center and then they have to go to your machine.
This is amusing given what it says on their website, http://angelnetworkz.net/new/network.html:
All servers in both datacenters are monitored 24/7 from 3 different locations and have on site staff around the clock to fix any problems that may arise with hardware, software or the network.
Another Angel Support person, in ticket:
"This machine was not turned off... The server should not have been down. Checking with the DC on this but it was either a breaker problem or a problem with your kernel again."
We didn't receive a proper reply until after we'd got a refund. Donna, in ticket:
Your server wasn't pulled. It was an error between local admins who failed to tell the DC techs what needed doing and they're fault for not getting back to the local admins and asking for more info.
:eek: We concluded it was either miscommunication, which is unlikely (who would turn off a box instead of hitting the reset button?), or they did pull the plug but weren't admitting to it. Then we read a post in another forum stating:
Angel: "Tempted to pull the plug on your server right now for all the uneeded trouble you seem determined to stir up nowadays..."
(see http://www.webhostingtalk.com/showthread.php?threadid=290107)
... and became even more suspicious. Even if they didn't pull the plug (all we can prove is it was powered down), 20 hours is a long time for a reboot, don't you think? :rolleyes:
We asked for a refund. In another surprise move, they then decided they had the option not to give us any refund at all, even though they offer an unconditional 7 day money back guarantee and we'd only had the server for 5 days!
Another Angel Support person, in a ticket:
"We wish to remain your providers for your server as a refund will most likely be in affect, but cannot be guaranteed."
From http://angelnetworkz.net/new/tos.html:
Refund Policy
Angel Networkz offers a 30 day unconditional money back guarentee (7 days on servers). This however excludes all setup fees and domain name registration fees.
:mad: After offering to take up the case with PayPal and the Better Business Bureau, we did get our $300 back, but we never got the $25 which we feel we are owed:
We are very dissatisfied. We agreed to pay the $25 support fee on the understanding that you would allow us to run Debian. Your support staff still do not seem to understand this (Brandon: "You shouldn't have been attempting to install Debian ontop of your Fedora installation and these issues wouldn't have occured."). We would remind you that your TOS and website say nothing of restrictions as to what OS we run on your server.
May the buyer beware. :rolleyes:
Now we fully expect a horde of Angel staff to leap on this thread and tell us that it was all our fault, that we took full responsibility the moment we installed Debian, we shouldn't have done that, they didn't do anything wrong, etc. etc. They've even tried to scare us into not writing this post:
Angel:
Post if you must be be aware you are also opening yourself up for criticism over your own actions of installing a new OS over an existing one and also upgrading your kernel remotely. Our only failure was to respond fast enough to get the server up after it went down again. I've already apologized for the miscommunication that led to that. But in a company this size sometimes something falls through a loophole.
Our level of service is fine, what you're pissed about is that you got in trouble for foolishly installing one OS over another, which 99% of most server admins would say is a bad idea.
If this is how you want to be treated, choose Angel Networkz! :confused: They may be cheap, but in my view, no company can be forgiven for abandoning basic standards of service and support no matter how little they charge. If they cannot offer the level of service they promise at the prices they advertise, they should increase their prices.
On a happier note, now that we have moved to ServerMatrix, all our problems have vanished. Debian was pre-configured. We ourselves installed an unsupported software RAID-1 array, and the support staff, who are aware, have been always friendly, helpful and courteous about it. Our reboot requests (4 in the last few days) were all answered within 30 minutes, and each time a technician has connected a console and watched the machine boot. They would even select a different LILO option for us. No $25 support fees. We think this is definitely worth the higher price. :cool:
There's nothing in the Terms of Service about OSes and we decided to install our favorite OS, Debian, under a chroot. Before long we had a custom partition scheme set up with Fedora on one and Debian on the other, but it did take a few reboots before it was stable. Like a headmaster learning what a naughty pupil had done, they jumped on us when they noticed we weren't running Fedora, and were rude about our using Debian:
Angel Support:
Btw, you do realise that you've voided your support by doing that right?
You shouldn't be installing another OS on there in the first place.
Us:
No, we didn't realize that we had voided our support or that installing another OS was not permitted, because this is not mentioned anywhere in the Terms of Service posted on your website or provided to us when we signed up.
One time we needed them to choose a different option in LILO. That's all we needed. They told us this would cost $25! We agreed to pay, conditional on them allowing us to run Debian. They consented and rebooted the box:
Angel Support:
There will be a fee of $25 to fix this mistake and $100 if we have to reinstall to fix it.
Us:
We are happy to pay the $25 fix fee (looks like it's fixed now anyway) providing that you agree that we can continue to run our Debian installation as the main OS on this box. If you will not allow this, we would like a refund on our server as we will simply switch to managed.com.
Angel Support:
If you want to run it so be it but be aware of the following:
#1 We take zero responsibility for the stability and uptime of the server
#2 Any support required by us will be billable at $25/hour with a one hour minimum. Payment of $25 for tonights fix can be sent via PayPal to billing@angelnetworkz.net
This seemed reasonable, and our server was back online. The next day we had to request another reboot, this time a simple one - we just needed them to press the reset button. However this one took 20 hours, and as far as we can deduce, they actually pulled the plug because we hadn't paid the $25 from the previous day's reboot yet. They hadn't even specified the due date or payment terms (net 30 anyone?) but in a sudden revelation of a random and unannounced policy we were told:
If this fee is not paid it will be deducted from your refund plus a $10 non payment penalty as it's due now, not at the end of the month.
Even after we'd paid up, it was another 8 hours before the server was turned back on, despite us updating our ticket. :angry: Here's proof that the server was turned off:
<<snip>>
Jun 26 20:50:01 (none) lpd[630]: restarted
Jun 26 20:50:08 (none) kernel: Linux Kernel Card Services
Jun 26 20:50:08 (none) kernel: options: [pci] [cardbus] [pm]
Jun 26 20:50:08 (none) kernel: Intel ISA PCIC probe: not found.
Jun 26 21:10:00 (none) -- MARK --
Jun 27 16:46:45 (none) syslogd 1.4.1#10: restart.
Jun 27 16:46:45 (none) kernel: klogd 1.4.1#10, log source = /proc/kmsg started.
Jun 27 16:46:45 (none) kernel: Linux version 2.4.25-1-686 (herbert@gondolin)
<<snip>>
Jun 27 17:06:45 (none) -- MARK --
Jun 27 17:26:45 (none) -- MARK --
Jun 27 17:46:45 (none) -- MARK --
Jun 27 18:06:45 (none) -- MARK --
Jun 27 18:26:45 (none) -- MARK --
Jun 27 18:46:45 (none) -- MARK --
Jun 27 19:06:45 (none) -- MARK --
Jun 27 19:26:45 (none) -- MARK --
Jun 27 19:46:45 (none) -- MARK --
<<snip>>
After 21:10-21:30 there are no --MARK--s. And the later trace shows that it wasn't a kernel crash - the same kernel ran fine for many hours the next day.
Meanwhile they continued to be abrupt, despite having agreed to allow Debian. This went against the agreement we had with them for the $25.
Angel Support, in ticket:
You shouldn't have been attempting to install Debian ontop of your Fedora installation and these issues wouldn't have occured.
The explanation for 20 hours downtime? That seemed to depend on who we asked!
Angel Support, in support ticket:
Please keep in mind that we have to send a techincan to the data center and then they have to go to your machine.
This is amusing given what it says on their website, http://angelnetworkz.net/new/network.html:
All servers in both datacenters are monitored 24/7 from 3 different locations and have on site staff around the clock to fix any problems that may arise with hardware, software or the network.
Another Angel Support person, in ticket:
"This machine was not turned off... The server should not have been down. Checking with the DC on this but it was either a breaker problem or a problem with your kernel again."
We didn't receive a proper reply until after we'd got a refund. Donna, in ticket:
Your server wasn't pulled. It was an error between local admins who failed to tell the DC techs what needed doing and they're fault for not getting back to the local admins and asking for more info.
:eek: We concluded it was either miscommunication, which is unlikely (who would turn off a box instead of hitting the reset button?), or they did pull the plug but weren't admitting to it. Then we read a post in another forum stating:
Angel: "Tempted to pull the plug on your server right now for all the uneeded trouble you seem determined to stir up nowadays..."
(see http://www.webhostingtalk.com/showthread.php?threadid=290107)
... and became even more suspicious. Even if they didn't pull the plug (all we can prove is it was powered down), 20 hours is a long time for a reboot, don't you think? :rolleyes:
We asked for a refund. In another surprise move, they then decided they had the option not to give us any refund at all, even though they offer an unconditional 7 day money back guarantee and we'd only had the server for 5 days!
Another Angel Support person, in a ticket:
"We wish to remain your providers for your server as a refund will most likely be in affect, but cannot be guaranteed."
From http://angelnetworkz.net/new/tos.html:
Refund Policy
Angel Networkz offers a 30 day unconditional money back guarentee (7 days on servers). This however excludes all setup fees and domain name registration fees.
:mad: After offering to take up the case with PayPal and the Better Business Bureau, we did get our $300 back, but we never got the $25 which we feel we are owed:
We are very dissatisfied. We agreed to pay the $25 support fee on the understanding that you would allow us to run Debian. Your support staff still do not seem to understand this (Brandon: "You shouldn't have been attempting to install Debian ontop of your Fedora installation and these issues wouldn't have occured."). We would remind you that your TOS and website say nothing of restrictions as to what OS we run on your server.
May the buyer beware. :rolleyes:
Now we fully expect a horde of Angel staff to leap on this thread and tell us that it was all our fault, that we took full responsibility the moment we installed Debian, we shouldn't have done that, they didn't do anything wrong, etc. etc. They've even tried to scare us into not writing this post:
Angel:
Post if you must be be aware you are also opening yourself up for criticism over your own actions of installing a new OS over an existing one and also upgrading your kernel remotely. Our only failure was to respond fast enough to get the server up after it went down again. I've already apologized for the miscommunication that led to that. But in a company this size sometimes something falls through a loophole.
Our level of service is fine, what you're pissed about is that you got in trouble for foolishly installing one OS over another, which 99% of most server admins would say is a bad idea.
If this is how you want to be treated, choose Angel Networkz! :confused: They may be cheap, but in my view, no company can be forgiven for abandoning basic standards of service and support no matter how little they charge. If they cannot offer the level of service they promise at the prices they advertise, they should increase their prices.
On a happier note, now that we have moved to ServerMatrix, all our problems have vanished. Debian was pre-configured. We ourselves installed an unsupported software RAID-1 array, and the support staff, who are aware, have been always friendly, helpful and courteous about it. Our reboot requests (4 in the last few days) were all answered within 30 minutes, and each time a technician has connected a console and watched the machine boot. They would even select a different LILO option for us. No $25 support fees. We think this is definitely worth the higher price. :cool: