View Full Version : How is HH ad policy different from WHT? Is this working well?
Christophe
05-04-03, 08:40 AM
Hello all. Hey, where did you get the great smilies? :baghead:
Anyway, I discovered this planet from an alien discussion at Web Design Forums. (http://www.webdesignforums.net/showthread.php?s=&postid=75269#post75269)
We are discussing "whether or not a healthy forum could or should allow advertising." Well, I kind of liked the advertising policy at WHT, but at WDF the folks say otherwise.Originally posted by TheGAME1264
...WHT used to be a great place. Even the best mod won't go there anymore (he opened his own site, Host Hideout (http://www.hosthideout.com) because he got sick of the BS there). One of the major things that is wrong with WHT is the advertising section. It's dominated by little fly-by-night offer-everything-for-a-dollar-until-we-can't-afford-it-and-cut-you-off "companies" (and I use that term very loosely)...Well, so I come here to HH---and I find "job offers & requests" and "related offers & requests" exactly like WHT.
Well, I personally agree with this. This is what I would like to see at WDF. But evidently, you are doing something different from WHT that "allows advertising to work" without lowering the discussion quality? If so, is this working out well? If so, I am starting some forums of my own, so I am all ears about "what is the best policy" for advertising.
(I am just a casual forum user, by the way, not a prominent member of either WHT or WDF.)
One major difference is the size of the two forums. Since ths one is still much smaller it is easier to monitor and keep the "bad" away. I would imagine as it grows changes will have to be made. As long as this community does not tolerate the fly-by-night hosts, they won't have a chance here.
Christophe
05-04-03, 09:28 AM
Originally posted by David: One major difference is the size of the two forums. Since ths one is still much smaller it is easier to monitor and keep the "bad" away... :banana: Aha. The whole trick is to have a small forum with as few members as possible. Hmmm....
:baghead:
Living Media
05-04-03, 09:33 AM
Or start out with a stricter advert policy, and enforce it.
WHT is full of bull****, atleast here the posts are not worthless, although there may not be 6 million of them.
Chicken didn't get kicked out of WHT, he left for many reasons.
I still visit WHT, but do not frequently take part in any of their discussions simply because 95% of them end up in a war or someone cheating someone else.
I kid you not when I say that the title of this site is HOSTHIDEOUT, meaning for HOSTS, I hope this place doesn't become the next WHT.
This place will not become like WHT, because evn i can see that this forum attracts a whooooooooooooooooollllleeeeeee different crowd.
The crowd that is here was the crowd that started WHT.
WHT went downhill (IMO) when it got taken over my RackShack
Robert, WHT went downhill waaay before RackShack bought it out.
kunal
As I think I tried to say, the key is keeping the crowd that is here the type that is wanted. By those that are regulars here helping to keep away the asses and by moderators quickly dealing with spammers.
David, that sounds like an easy task but really isnt. When your on a public forum, you cant tell so-n-so person that you are not welcome. Please leave. You can't really say that.
You could monitor your sign ups, but monitoring more then 50 signups a day is a HUGE task.
kunal
Sure, WHT has gone downhill since RackShack bought it, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's RackShack's fault. How well they could've prevented it is open to debate of course...but like kunal said, you can't just go around telling lots of people that they're not welcome. What really appalls me is the sheer lack of common sense of so many people there. Everything from trying to start a webhost on their own when they don't the slightest thing about running a business or the slightest thing about administrating servers (or all too often both) to not RTFMing to not thinking beyond the exact words said in others' posts. This isn't true for everyone there of course, but the ratio of good to bad keeps getting worse.
Living Media
05-05-03, 09:02 AM
Originally posted by no1v2:
What really appalls me is the sheer lack of common sense of so many people there. Everything from trying to start a webhost on their own when they don't the slightest thing about running a business or the slightest thing about administrating servers (or all too often both) to not RTFMing to not thinking beyond the exact words said in others' posts. This isn't true for everyone there of course, but the ratio of good to bad keeps getting worse.
...and I think it's only going to get worse. Or "continue changing". The mention in the CNet article is going to give people the impression that anyone can go, ask for web hosting, and receive an enlightened / intelligent reply. Awrk...
The level of traffic in there does seem to be dominated by the overzealous.
:(
Originally posted by kunal:
David, that sounds like an easy task but really isnt. When your on a public forum, you cant tell so-n-so person that you are not welcome. Please leave. You can't really say that.
You could monitor your sign ups, but monitoring more then 50 signups a day is a HUGE task.
kunal
You don't have to monitor your signups. If we have someone here register and post an obviously bogus offer, the response of the members here will determine if people do the same thing in the future. If people go an comment and ask about it, then the fraudsters will see there is a chance here. If instead people either ignore it, or post how obviously bogus it is, it will stop.
A community is only what the members make and allow it to be. If the members here don't allow the advertising crap, it won't be here.
JeremyV
05-05-03, 11:26 AM
Originally posted by kunal:
David, that sounds like an easy task but really isnt. When your on a public forum, you cant tell so-n-so person that you are not welcome. Please leave. You can't really say that.
You could monitor your sign ups, but monitoring more then 50 signups a day is a HUGE task.
kunal
Actually, it is that easy.
Someone posts with blatant disregard for the rules... ban them. Or if you don't want to be too strict, give them one warning first, then ban. It is easy really.. but once you start enforcing the rules, it applies to everyone.
So if it is a known fact that if you come here posting BS offers and you will get banned, you will have a lot less people trying to get away with it. I run quite a few forums, and it is made known that breaking the rules will result in severe punishment. It only took a few people to set an example before rule-breakers almost completely dissapeared.
The reason you can do this is because it is a privately owned forum. The person who runs it (chicken) sets and enforces the rules and can do so if he wishes. :)
Originally posted by JeremyV:
Someone posts with blatant disregard for the rules... ban them. Or if you don't want to be too strict, give them one warning first, then ban. It is easy really.. but once you start enforcing the rules, it applies to everyone.
So if it is a known fact that if you come here posting BS offers and you will get banned, you will have a lot less people trying to get away with it. I run quite a few forums, and it is made known that breaking the rules will result in severe punishment. It only took a few people to set an example before rule-breakers almost completely dissapeared.
Glad other admins ban people, a lot of admins refuse to ban people; I see banning as just another tool. You break the rules on my site, I don't want you to be there. Even if someone decides to go through a proxy and defeat an IP ban the message that they are banned because their actions are not tolerated is what is important.
alchiba
05-05-03, 12:21 PM
Originally posted by Stealther:
at least here the posts are not worthless
Except most of mine. :D
Actually, I come here with the express purpose not to advertise as you'll note by my signature and lack of links, so the HH ad policy doesn't concern me much. Most importantly I'd like to see this forum keep up the tone of the 'glory days' of W*T, when people were out to help you rather than out to get you. That's what draws people and, I think, gives any advertising the most clout.
I love that term..
""fly-by-night offer-everything-for-a-dollar-until-we-can't-afford-it-and-cut-you-off "" companies
:D
Originally posted by JeremyV:
So if it is a known fact that if you come here posting BS offers and you will get banned, you will have a lot less people trying to get away with it. I run quite a few forums, and it is made known that breaking the rules will result in severe punishment. It only took a few people to set an example before rule-breakers almost completely dissapeared.
Do you have any idea of the number of posts and threads we are talking about at WHT? Do you know how many new signups it gets every day? As chicken knows best, the mods over at WHT started policing the forum more than contributing to it. I quit mod'ing there a long time before chicken did. It simply dint make any sense anymore. Yes, we were getting reports from users, we were getting them by the 100s, members were being shamed, but getting shamed doesnt stop people who want to break rules... but there is only so much 4 guys can do during their free time.... The policies at HHO are the same as WHT was at one time, so far it has worked great... if chicken can manage the exponential growth with an exponential growth in the number moderators, and actively work on an adaptive policy, HHO will survive and the policies will hold. :) Its upto mr. :chicken: :)
kunal
JeremyV
05-05-03, 02:43 PM
Originally posted by kunal:
Do you have any idea of the number of posts and threads we are talking about at WHT? Do you know how many new signups it gets every day? As chicken knows best, the mods over at WHT started policing the forum more than contributing to it. I quit mod'ing there a long time before chicken did. It simply dint make any sense anymore. Yes, we were getting reports from users, we were getting them by the 100s, members were being shamed, but getting shamed doesnt stop people who want to break rules... but there is only so much 4 guys can do during their free time.... The policies at HHO are the same as WHT was at one time, so far it has worked great... if chicken can manage the exponential growth with an exponential growth in the number moderators, and actively work on an adaptive policy, HHO will survive and the policies will hold. :) Its upto mr. :chicken: :)
kunal
Oh, yeah I completely understand. WHT is massive, and it does take a lot of work. But if you look at WHT, how many really ACTIVE mods do you see? They are starting to correct what they screwed up on, because look at it about 4 months ago... Chicken was really the only active mod you saw, and the sad thing is, almost all of the moderation was in the lounge and other forums that may need it, but not in the forums that literally kill WHT and the hosting industry in general.
I mean throw 3 dedicated mods in just the advertising forums, and you could clean that up very easily. But again, it all comes down to how everything was messed up to begin with. Moderation was almost non-existent, people got away with murder on the forum, more and more people signed up, more people saw how easy it was to break the rules, and it just snowballed. If you start out being hard-nosed about it when the site is small and maintain that as it grows, you will NOT have the same problems.
Also, I don't know about the moderation situation there, but I'm a mod on a few large forums, even larger than WHT and I get paid to do it. It is not an easy job, I completely understand. And they don't pay me much, but it is just a little incentive to be active in the community and make sure to enforce the rules. Not saying this is the way it should be everywhere, but if you find mods who are willing to uphold the rules and regulations of the forums from the beginning, the site will never become the cespool the WHT advertsing forums are :D
Jeremy, valid points. Most of us became inactive, for reasons I dont really want to discuss here. Lets just say, if chicken keeps up with things, this place will NOT become another WHT. :)
Go chicken! :)
kunal
you know guys i fell the same way about HHO i hope it grows, but under control and with a good user to mod ratio.
i started a while back on wht and realy liked it. the people were cool (ok once and awhile you got a jerk but ehh, cant win them all) and helped each other a lot. I started to help out as much as i could on there as well. but then it went to hell in a hand baskit.
I hope that HHO will grow and keep the rules enforced keep the bad stuff down to a minum.
If i was a mod I would truly do my best to help this forum grow.
James
:chicken: hint hint:D
pushbutton
05-17-03, 06:01 PM
Originally posted by Robert:
The crowd that is here was the crowd that started WHT.
WHT went downhill (IMO) when it got taken over my RackShack
That sounds like BS to me, the community controlled the forum and the community is responsible for what happens to it. Every forum is more organized and logical when it's smaller. If this one starts attracting enough people to have 500+ people on at any given time, I guarantee the tune will change.
I hate WHT, i was a member there since almost the start and even though i had been a member for over a year, they losely banned me. A disgruntled customer of mine that forgot to add that he was fully refunded, started a flame and ruined my public profile on WHT. i had 1000+ posts and i visited everyday, now i seek to find a new escape, thus being HHO.
I imagine you'd hate HHO if you got banned from here as well.
I don't know how you guys can compare two forums that are nothing alike.
Just in shear numbers alone, they are miles apart.
I doubt HHO bans members with credibility without properly investigating.
Chicken
05-20-03, 10:10 PM
Well, I don't want to touch that one, as it isn't a HHO issue exactly, and I just wanted to mention that when this thread was posted, I decided to wait until I had read the rest of the posts and then I would reply (which I forgot to) as I thought it might be a longer post. Repeat. Repeat. If I wasn't feeling a bit tired and under the weather, I'd take a shot at it (many good points posted already though).
I, Brian
05-25-03, 04:24 AM
If there's one thing I'd change about WHT, it's the censored company names. It restricts research and the reasoning for the censoring isn't ever clear. WHT is useful as a research site, but seriously limits itself through this practice. I hope HHO will use a more considered way of dealing with the issue of rule breakers. Blanket blacklisting isn't useful to anybody.
Chicken
05-25-03, 09:47 AM
It is the most effective way to deal with board spammers, from past experience. People don't start to pay attention until it actually affects them, and blocking their URL does that trick. I can't tell you how many times that someone came to the forum, ignored the guidelines and warnings and spammed the forum, was blocked, and then re-registered and tried to do it again. Then they ask on the forum why ***** is blocked and sure enough, an IP check confirms it is the same spammer or company. If you have a better method (used in practice, not just theory), then I'd be all ears.
Not sure if used in practise but here goes.
Instead of replacing the URL with stars leave the url but unlink it and make it red or something. Then in the bottom of the post, in red, put something like the following
**The url in red in this post has been blocked for multiple violations of the rules of this forum.
Make some sort of hack so the poster can't edit the post and remove that stuff.
Second idea
Change the url so it links to a popup window on the forum that has a message like the other one saying the url is blocked for ...
I, Brian
05-27-03, 07:04 AM
If you have a better method (used in practice, not just theory), then I'd be all ears.
Of course I have a better method from practice - I run a web host forum of 50,000 members and come here simply for relaxation...
Come on, Chicken just because something isn't tested on WHT then it doesn't mean to say it isn't practicable.
A public blacklist, with reasons for that blacklisting, would be an immediate suggestion. I'm not saying it's ideal.
But the blanket banning of company names makes no sense because it doesn't actually differentiate spamming violations from any other type of "rules" violation (I'm sure I saw that topic raised elsewhere here). Also note that there is no real penalty for a host if their name is *****ed out from view - ****ing company names protects them from identification in the event of reporting for poor service - which certainly doesn't help the consumer.
sharpweb
06-01-03, 06:48 AM
I hate myself for saying this. What would a forum be like if you could vote people off the island so to speak...and you could have to have a certain number of bona fide intelligent posts before you were allowed advertising access to the forums? Just an idea, I think it would be a hassle to implement and eventually degenerate into a giant pile of poop. But, it is a very entertaining idea.
-Sean
Chicken
06-01-03, 09:02 AM
Originally posted by sharpweb:
...and you could have to have a certain number of bona fide intelligent posts before you were allowed advertising access to the forums?
It's just not practical (admin wise) for a forum, let alone a larger forum (where problems are even more prevalent). Who is going to comb through all posts to see if you've made enough 'bona fide intelligent posts' ? Not I.
Originally posted by Chicken:
It's just not practical (admin wise) for a forum, let alone a larger forum (where problems are even more prevalent). Who is going to comb through all posts to see if you've made enough 'bona fide intelligent posts' ? Not I.
I'll do it for $1 per post I look through
I, Brian
06-01-03, 10:19 AM
Chicken - apologies - my attitude has been cocky and antagonistic recently.
Here's a site I just rediscovered that has a small hosting board - but it also has a special sub-forum for moving spam from hosts - "The Hall of Shame" - with a clear recommendation to think of avoiding these hosts.
I'd recommend you consider looking at it in terms of an option - that way bad hosts could be researched for negative testimonials, which is preciselt what cannot be done through WHT without doctoring of names and URLs.
Link:
http://www.webdesignforums.net/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=11
Chicken, no comments on my idea? :P
Chicken
06-01-03, 09:32 PM
Originally posted by David:
Not sure if used in practise but here goes.
Instead of replacing the URL with stars leave the url but unlink it and make it red or something. Then in the bottom of the post, in red, put something like the following
**The url in red in this post has been blocked for multiple violations of the rules of this forum.
Make some sort of hack so the poster can't edit the post and remove that stuff.
Second idea
Change the url so it links to a popup window on the forum that has a message like the other one saying the url is blocked for ...
Well, technically I don't know how to implement what you're asking. The URL is replaced by stars via the vBull censor list. Changing that to a system which 'unlinks it and makes it red' isn't something right out of the box. I don't know if that's possible (how it unlinks a link, etc.), and adding the text at the bottom would require a bit of hacking as well.
The second idea again would require that the forum check and compare every link posted, determine if it is in a list, and change and display its properties.
I just don't see it working, not to mention the URL is still on the forum, something which I don't like.
sharpweb
06-01-03, 09:51 PM
I was horribly thinking of slashdot...where the users moderate the posts. Granted the only posts that would be moded up would be dumb dumb jokes.....flaws inherent in the system. I wonder if we could make it work. Heh, maybe you can't mod up...only down...
Here's an idea you'll like..we can bill for stupid posts. Take credit cards with signup and if you post something stupid or anoying you get charged a buck. mwa haa haa.
-Sean
Chicken
06-02-03, 05:58 AM
What I will do is modify the guidelines, try to slim it down even more (though there are things I still have to add heh), and make it crystal clear that if you spam the forum, your account will be suspended and/or URL blocked.
Originally posted by David:
Not sure if used in practise but here goes.
Instead of replacing the URL with stars leave the url but unlink it and make it red or something. Then in the bottom of the post, in red, put something like the following
**The url in red in this post has been blocked for multiple violations of the rules of this forum.
Make some sort of hack so the poster can't edit the post and remove that stuff.
Second idea
Change the url so it links to a popup window on the forum that has a message like the other one saying the url is blocked for ...
I really like both of those ideas!
LOL! I just HAD to try this smily:
:suckers:
I hope you all don't think that I'm one of the bad people at WHT, because I might start coming here.
WHT is getting on my nerves.
The running a web hosting business forum has the same questions over and over again. Do I need to pay taxes or get a license? How can I take credit cards? How do I get people to my web site? What do you think of these plans? And more often than not, how do I become a web host?
The tech and security forum is full of "I don't have a clue how to administer my server, help". It's getting boring responding with "Hire a system administrator".
Grr.
Placer14
06-21-03, 06:16 AM
The quality of the members here is something that I really like. I had a customer that needed info/looking for hosting, and trying not to be biased to my own company, I directed the customer to WHT and check around and considered HHO for a moment and said, "No, this is for Hosts, not customers." and just directed them to WHT with advise and offered help if necessary.
I wasn't an avid user at WHT, but the month or so that I was there and the few weeks or so that I was here is like night and day. :)
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