One of those threads ....

[thebyp2]

I'm probably going to get myself lynched for writing this thread but hey, i'll give it a go because i'd like some input from you folks over the pond.

a little context...

i am sitting here with my laptop watching bbc 2 which is showing a documentry of sorts about the death penalty in america. now i don't want to discuss that really because thats not really something any of are going to agree on as it tends to have very fixed opinions.

What i want to know is why are americans so agresive towards non - americans if they ask anything they dis agree with. the crux of this is this phrase:

if they don't like it, then they can get out of my country

this, in this occasion was used as this bbc reporter agreed to go on an american chat show to cast the british point of view. a bad thing to do as afterall we are nasty people who always get in americas way, or so i'm told :rolleyes:

this phrase seems to be everywhere. i have seen it in numerous threads on various boards. normally after a flury of very agresive responses.

so why do you, as an american or not, feel this phrase and its ethos is so prevalent?

[/mini rant]

[Living Media]

That's the response that gets reported. That's not the only response that Americans have.

That gets reported because it's reactionary, it gets peoples' blood pumping and emotionally engages them in the story.

Those who have more moderate responses bore the living hell out of reporter-types. For one thing, those responses can't usually be captured in a neat little sound byte. For another, they may require thought and reasoning - which doesn't seem to be what news reporting is about, not very much. It's about being quick, engaging the viewer, making them horrified / angry / indignant / what have you. Tapping into some visceral, emotional response gets a higher ratings than does reasoning.

[Dapon]

If I understand your question, you are asking why Americans feel "if they don't like it they can get out of my country". I can only speak for myself.

It gets old having so many foreigners come here and then bash the US. We didn't force them to come here. It is a fact that a lot of them come here and use our financial benifits such as health care and social security and have never paid into it. It is a burden on our country as a whole.

Our borders are basically open to everyone. Do you have any idea how many illegal allleins we have in this country? And we are paying to have them here. I live in California. I'm not positive on the number but it seems like the California handbook to get your drivers licence is published in 54 different languages. If you come here why should I pay so you can get the drivers handbook in your language. Learn our langauge.

I could go on and give example after example, but to put it simply, I am tired off supporting the world and being treated like crap. If you don't like this country then why come here. Stay home and bitch about us. Then I couldn't care less. Don't ask for US aid when you're country is in trouble. Then you are free to talk all the crap you want. Time after time we come to the aid of another country, only to be criticized for it.
Just my two cents worth.

[thebyp2]

the thing about this is that this reporter did not get a chance to say anything on this chat show (which he was invied onto). he just sat there while people got more worked up by themselves and the people before them about the fact that he was over here to report on this area.

dapon, the problem you have is that you live in a country that exerts its opinion on every other country whether its wanted or not.
and incidently, every western country has the same 'problem' with supporting its migrants. the uk is in a politcal correcness gone mad period at the moment. children are no longer allowed to eat hot cross buns in school for fear of offending anybody who doesn't celebrate easter.

[Dapon]

thebyp2, I agree to a certain extent. As soon as they are in trouble they want our help but they don't want our opinion. Can't have it both ways.

And don't even get me started on political correctness. We can't even call it Easter in the schools here. It is called Spring Break. My wife is a second grade teacher. She is not allowed to correct homework with a red pen because it's bad for the childrens self esteem.

I call it the Soccer Mom syndrome. When I was a kid and played sportd you had to earn a trophy. Taught you to work harder. Then the soccer moms decided to just give all the kids a trophy for effort. Don't want little Johnny to feel bad. Who cares that all he did all year was stand on the field and swat at butterflies. What value does that have. I know that will get a rise out of someone.

I have a 18 year old son who is an All-American waterpolo player and a 13 year old who is a 2 time Calif State wrestling champion. Would their medals be worth the same to them if they gave all the kids one?

These are just a few very minor examples of PC. Oh, one other that iritates me. In Calif there are womens only health clubs. You cannot have a mens only club. Why? I used to own a health club. Always bugged me that I had to put in a womans side.

I am starting to rant so will stop.

[Living Media]

Those women's-only facilities make me wonder, too. I mean, didn't the females who came before me work for gender -=equality=-, and now their daughters are pushing for separate facilities? People, make up your freaking mind already.

Political correctness is doing more damage to the push for equal opportunity than people will admit. Not equal results, not equal status - equal ****opportunity***.

[Robert]

I am sick and tired (not pointing any fingers) of people (in other countries) thinking that because 1 American says it, than ALL Americans say it. What the heck man?

The problem in America is there is too much freedom, in saying that, everyone wants it THEIR way.

For example, the Pledge Allegiance no longer contains the word "Under God" because some American said that he didn't believe in God and that it was wrong to have his daughter saying that in school.

Am I against burning the flag? Heck yea. But wait, doesn't that go against Amendement 1, Freedom of Speech? Heck no. Burning the flag symbolizes hate for that country, in this case, being America. How can I allow someone to burn something I love so much?

Another thing, if you HATE America sooo much, why do you live here? Simple answer.... because it's the Only country that will put up with your B.S.

Wow I went off!

[interactive]

Robert I wouldn't see Americans have too much freedoms. If you give the government an inch they'll take a mile so lets leave it how it is.

But thebyp2, like Robert said not all Americans think that way. I've said the phrase quiet a few times though to people who have recently imigrated to the USA. What I don't understand though, is why the new imigrats think that because they are new they automaticly have a larger voice than another person. They come to the USA thinking one thing and get another, and then try to change what they don't like. Like the saying goes you can't please everyone.

[JeremyV]

This is a tough situation, and its hard to take a stance that will make everyone happy. But, let me share a little personal experience to get the point across. Granted, not every american thinks "if you don't like it, go home", but to be honest, in most situations, I think people really need to see that this is the attitude that should be taken.

For example, my fiance's father has owned and operated one of the largest industries in the Detroit area for basically his whole life. He hires local people, black people, white people, immigrants who just came in for a job, and people who are struggling on welfare.

Well, last I had talked to him, every single immigrant (whether from canada or mexico or what have you) that he fires, they ALWAYS slap him with a lawsuit! EVERY SINGLE ONE. They claim that he fires t hem because they are minorities, or immigrants so they aren't getting paid enough...

Well, that is complete BS. He hires people based on their resumes, and because he has to fill the stupid government "quotas". So.... when johnny immigrant comes into work an hour late for 2 weeks straight, and gets fired... why does he have any right to file a lawsuit? He fired them because they were not performing their duties, and would fire ANYONE regardless of who they were who did this.

Yet 99% of them drag him into court, to force a settlement or to be brought back into work just because they claim he is treating them unfairly. That is what f-ing bothers me.

Just because you come to this country doesn't give you rights above and beyond what everyone else has (interactive brought this up already). They come here thinking they can just do whatever they want and they are entitled to this free land, tons of job opportunities, and cannot be fired or sent back.

Well, think what you want, but for the most part it is complete BS. People do come here for the land of opportunity. They get great benefits, jobs, money, you name it, they want it. Well... if you come here, don't expect free hand outs like we owe it to you. You need to work like everyone else. Respect everyone else, and follow the same rules as everyone else. Too many people think coming to America is a free lunch, well that isn't how it works (at least it shouldn't work).

Blah, I didn't want to get into a ranting mode, but I did, sorry.

[Robert]

My father is Cuban and came from Cuba when he was 14 years old wayy back when Castro first took control. He didn't come in a raft, him, his sisters, mothers, cousins all came in an airplane. Most people in Miami consider the "real" cubans as those who came to Miami in the 50's,60's,70's because they are today, some of the most sucessful people. They are educated, they are respectful and most of all, they appreciate what this country has done for them.

Living in Miami I see many many cubans who have fled from Cuba and made it to Miami. The rule for cubans is if they touch U.S. Soil, they get to stay. However those who come now, do not respect this country. Majority of them refuse to learn english, majority of them refuse to follow the laws and most of them think this is Cuba. This Isn't Cuba. What I cannot understand is, in Cuba they had no say of nothing, than they come here and 2 weeks later they are protesting and blocking roads and what not. They know good and well in Cuba they would be shot right there in the spot, so they do it here because it's "Land of the Free".

I'm Cuban (Born in Italy), but I'd love to make those who get away with murder (not technically) get some punishment. I speak spanish, however, lately I refuse to. If your gonna live in this country, than learn the language, otherwise, suffer. That may be cruel, but those who come from Cuba have family here who take them in. While the Real Americans are homeless and living on the streets.

Yes this is a direct message to the Cubans. qué sucede, sucede

[eVs]

Originally posted by Dapon: It gets old having so many foreigners come here and then bash the US. We didn't force them to come here. It is a fact that a lot of them come here and use our financial benifits such as health care and social security and have never paid into it. It is a burden on our country as a whole.

...

Do you have any idea how many illegal allleins we have in this country? And we are paying to have them here.
Actually illegal/unauthorised entrants boost the US economy by $800 million a year, last time I saw figures.

But anyway, parochialism is everywhere. I'm not saying that everyone is parochial or that anyone here is, I'm just saying that no matter where you go, there will be people who are. Some places are worse than others, but there you go.

[Dapon]

Originally posted by eVs:

Actually illegal/unauthorised entrants boost the US economy by $800 million a year, last time I saw figures.

But anyway, parochialism is everywhere. I'm not saying that everyone is parochial or that anyone here is, I'm just saying that no matter where you go, there will be people who are. Some places are worse than others, but there you go.

Not saying you are wrong but I would like to see where you got that info. I live in Calif. and I know it's not that way in my state. Maybe as a country in whole, but in Calif it cost money.

[eVs]

If I find the number again I'll post it, I can't remember where it was but it was definately a legitimate source. I used it for some research I was doing at the time.

[Dapon]

Thanks, and I will find the Calif numbers for you. But even so it shows that even thought the rest of the world thinks were so bad a lot of them come over here. For whatever reason.

We have illegals come over from mexico when they are 9 months pregnant just to have the kids born here and be US citizens. It's really bad in San Diego county and all other border towns.

Although I must admit, I would love to come to your country and check it out. I have always thought Aus would be a great place to live. Don't know why, just seems like a beautiful country

[eVs]

Yeah... some abuse the system and that has to be accounted for.

I'll find the figures when I have a bit of time, trying to write an essay at the moment but I just can't concentrate :idea:

PS. Yes it's very nice here, thank you :)

[101sales]

Originally posted by Dapon:

If I understand your question, you are asking why Americans feel "if they don't like it they can get out of my country". I can only speak for myself.

It gets old having so many foreigners come here and then bash the US. We didn't force them to come here. It is a fact that a lot of them come here and use our financial benifits such as health care and social security and have never paid into it. It is a burden on our country as a whole.

Our borders are basically open to everyone. Do you have any idea how many illegal allleins we have in this country? And we are paying to have them here. I live in California. I'm not positive on the number but it seems like the California handbook to get your drivers licence is published in 54 different languages. If you come here why should I pay so you can get the drivers handbook in your language. Learn our langauge.


Look at us up North - we just don't care :D

[thebyp2]

wow, this thread has grown since i last looked :D

thanks all for your input. i guess the real thing i have a problem with was that this guy had no intention of staying or even trying to inflict his views on anybody, he just thought it would be nice to agree to be on this show. he just got savaged by all these people because, as one person put it, he comes from a dictator state. that would be the queen then i guess they were talking about.

[Dapon]

Originally posted by 101sales:

Look at us up North - we just don't care :D

HeHe. Since I live in S. Calif we don't have a big influx of Canadians sneaking into our state. That I kow of, although they may just be sneaky. :p:

[thebyp2]

the second they take off those lumberjack jackets they almost look like real people, damn sneaky folk :D

[Dapon]

Yeah, and I heard on the radio that you guys are going to decriminalize marijuana. Now you will have a lot of illegal, burned out, Americans sneaking onto your country.

[James]

yes i agree with the people who say if you come to OUR country, you MUST at lest learn english. as in reading and speeking.
where i work we get a lot of them on WIC and ebt(our vershion of welfair) and they dont speek a lick of english. I had to lern how to say not alowed on wic in spanish to speed things up or pull a bagger off of a nother line to explane what i mean. COME on people! if you come to this country at lest give out native tong a try:)

robert:
ok man not to pick a fight or anything but the frist amendment grants us to be the biggest pig headed fools and, to thoes who care to listen, alow us to skeep our mind. and that does cover burning the flag in efuge(SP?)

as it was said in one move (yes i know it was a movie but i liked the line) "If you call a person who burns a flag in protest not an american then you my friend are NOT an american. "
or somthing to that efect robert im not calling you that its just the line or the bits and pices i remember from it.

and yes our constatution states seperation of cherch and state.
i bleave that it should be so. even tho good ol bush wants us to bleave its good to have god (or name your god here) and state.
Wasnt that one of the reasons why we fought for our freedom from england(ohh boy creek goes the can o worm's)?
shure the main points were freedom from taxshon with out rep.
and others as well.
ok ill get off my :soapbox: now
James

robert,
im not trying to offend you or anyone else im just stating my case and offerning proof to go along with it. ill do some digging and find out more info if you would like to exchange links about anything you find as well.

[Robert]

Originally posted by James:

yes i agree with the people who say if you come to OUR country, you MUST at lest learn english. as in reading and speeking.
where i work we get a lot of them on WIC and ebt(our vershion of welfair) and they dont speek a lick of english. I had to lern how to say not alowed on wic in spanish to speed things up or pull a bagger off of a nother line to explane what i mean. COME on people! if you come to this country at lest give out native tong a try:)

robert:
ok man not to pick a fight or anything but the frist amendment grants us to be the biggest pig headed fools and, to thoes who care to listen, alow us to skeep our mind. and that does cover burning the flag in efuge(SP?)

as it was said in one move (yes i know it was a movie but i liked the line) "If you call a person who burns a flag in protest not an american then you my friend are NOT an american. "
or somthing to that efect robert im not calling you that its just the line or the bits and pices i remember from it.

and yes our constatution states seperation of cherch and state.
i bleave that it should be so. even tho good ol bush wants us to bleave its good to have god (or name your god here) and state.
Wasnt that one of the reasons why we fought for our freedom from england(ohh boy creek goes the can o worm's)?
shure the main points were freedom from taxshon with out rep.
and others as well.
ok ill get off my :soapbox: now
James

robert,
im not trying to offend you or anyone else im just stating my case and offerning proof to go along with it. ill do some digging and find out more info if you would like to exchange links about anything you find as well.

When you destroy something that has given you freedom (ie. The American Flag) you are basically saying that you think very little of it. While I could say that "this is my country more than it is yours", I don't. I welcome everyone to this country, but expect them to respect me and the country. Burning the flag is a personal attack on ME.

When we say "Under God" in the Pledge, we are not referring to A God, we are referring to God (your God, our God, His God, Her God).

We fought our freedom from England to be our own independant country, our Founding Fathers risked their lifes for this country, and there is no way I am letting some foreign person change what they have created.

[Chicken]

Some extremely interesting points, comments, and issues in this thread!
Originally posted by thebyp2:

the uk is in a politcal correcness gone mad period at the moment. children are no longer allowed to eat hot cross buns in school for fear of offending anybody who doesn't celebrate easter.
I've run into similar issues at school myself. There was a parent who made it clear that their child was not to participate in any Christmas-related activities, functions, etc., as they were not Christian. I had a talk with them and explained that we do celebrate holidays such as Christmas, and hold functions relating to Christmas not to encourage the religion upon students, but rather to educate them as to the different customs and activities that people participate in.

You don't have to be German or believe in German customs to participate and be educated in various German customs. Understanding and education of different groups ultimately promotes tolerance and compassion. When it comes to culture and religion though, I realize this concept is often lost entirely.

I had the opportunity to chair the annual "Chistmas Program" and I changed it to the "Holiday Program" and assigned every grade a different culture. So 1st grade did Christmas, 2nd grade did Kwanzaa, 3rd grade did Hanukkah, etc. The teachers weren't thrilled, but in the end, the program was very diverse and colorful and everyone commented how it was the best program we've ever had due to the diversity.
Originally posted by Dapon:

And don't even get me started on political correctness. We can't even call it Easter in the schools here. It is called Spring Break. My wife is a second grade teacher. She is not allowed to correct homework with a red pen because it's bad for the childrens self esteem.
I do agree with having breaks around holidays and not calling them "Easter Break", etc. The red pen thing? Heh. I use red pen :D
Originally posted by Robert:

For example, the Pledge Allegiance no longer contains the word "Under God" because some American said that he didn't believe in God and that it was wrong to have his daughter saying that in school.
The Pledge still contains those words. Our school still recites the Pledge, as a group, every morning, "...and under God..." This is an interesting issue however and it would seem a bit odd to "Pledge Allegiance to the flag of the United States of America
and to the Republic" <snip> "one Nation under God" when you didn't believe in God. As Robert said below, "your God, our God, His God, Her God" -but that doesn't work so well and make sense when one person doesn't believe in God. How do you fit them in?
Originally posted by Dapon:

Not saying you are wrong but I would like to see where you got that info. I live in Calif. and I know it's not that way in my state. Maybe as a country in whole, but in Calif it cost money.
I think what eVs s referring to is the need for such people in the work force.
Originally posted by James:

robert:
ok man not to pick a fight or anything but the frist amendment grants us to be the biggest pig headed fools and, to thoes who care to listen, alow us to skeep our mind. and that does cover burning the flag in efuge(SP?)
I do agree with the Constitution, and that symbols of a country should not be burned. That's highly offensive to some people and one can say and do many things up to that point. You can't hunt bald eagles either.
Originally posted by Robert:

When you destroy something that has given you freedom (ie. The American Flag) you are basically saying that you think very little of it. Burning the flag is a personal attack on ME.

When we say "Under God" in the Pledge, we are not referring to A God, we are referring to God (your God, our God, His God, Her God).
Although the flag didn't, "[give] you freedom" per se, it is a symbol that represents the United States. I wouldn't be for reversing the law that prohibits individuals from burning the flag. Freedom does need constraints, and I believe that is one of them, due to how offensive that act is.

"Under God" was addressed above.

[Dapon]

I do agree with having breaks around holidays and not calling them "Easter Break", etc. The red pen thing? Heh. I use red pen

This one about the red pen shocked me also. I help Joye, my wife correct papers at night and I used a red pen. Didn't relly think about it I just happened to grap a red one. OK, it may have been in my sub-conscious becuase that's how my school work was always corrected, but I didn't mean anything by it.

I had about half the papers corrected and she noticed the red ink. Told me I couldn't use red and had to white out all I had done. I had even made positive marks like happy faces. Kind of ridiculous to me.

Now I heard on the radio on the way to the office today that the text books have to be changed in CA to become more politically correct. Can't show pics of Native Americans with braids looking at buffalo in the plains. It's offensive. Never mind that it's accurate. (I am 1/8 Cherokee by the way) I can't even remember all of the changes, but they are totally ridiculous.

Oh well, as long as nobodies offended by anything, ever again in life I guess it's a good thing.

Won't go into a long dissertation here, but I agree with you about the flag Robert. I am an ex Naval Officer and although I never fought in a war the flag still means something to me. I do realize people have the right to burn it, but I don't agree with it. Go burn an Iragi flag if you feel compelled to burn a flag.

[eVs]

I just thought I'd throw these in - I'm neither supporting nor condoning them, I just thought they might spark some more discussion on some of the points and issues that have been raised. Note: they are not meant to enrage, but to stimulate interpretation.

My kind of loyalty was loyalty to one's country, not to its institutions or its office-holders.
~Mark Twain

Patriotic societies seem to think that the way to educate school children in a democracy is to stage bigger and better flag-saluting.
~S.I. Hayakawa

He is a poor patriot whose patriotism does not enable him to understand how all men everywhere feel about their altars and their hearthstones, their flag and their fatherland.
~Harry Emerson Fosdick

I have no sense of nationalism, only a cosmic consciousness of belonging to the human family.
~Rosika Schwimmer

One that amused me about the red pen:
Borders are scratched across the hearts of men
By strangers with a calm, judicial pen,
And when the borders bleed we watch with dread
The lines of ink across the map turn red.
~Marya Mannes

Two of my faves:
It is not easy to see how the more extreme forms of nationalism can long survive when men have seen the Earth in its true perspective as a single small globe against the stars.
~Arthur C. Clarke

Man creates problems. Government and bureaucrats magnify them 100 times.
--George Van Valkenburg

[eVs]

Originally posted by Dapon:
Go burn an Iragi flag if you feel compelled to burn a flag.
:rolleyes:

[James]

evs,
then watch as the iraqi people start to kill OUR troops over there.
things are bad enufg over there for them lets not go down this road a nother time a nother thread.

yes i can see how burning our flag would piss people off but that law is stupid plane and simple stupid.

If it wasnt for the people who did burn our flag at protests about wars, back in the 60's,70's i think people would have a differnt view about it.
James

[Dapon]

You are probably right james. As someone who grew up in the 60's and 70's I remember it well.

[eVs]

LOL... Deary me. Things are never going to change, are they?

[Dapon]

They just re-cycle I think eVs.